NY State may require nurses to obtain 4-year degrees

Nursing Students ADN/BSN

Published

But some worry that an already severe shortage will become worse.

New York is mulling over a requirement that would force all RNs to earn a bachelor's degree in order to keep their RN certification-a step that critics worry could serve as a body blow to a profession already facing a severe shortage.

Under the state Board of Nursing proposal, RNs with associate's degrees would have to earn bachelor's degrees within 10 years, or their RN certifications would be downgraded to that of licensed practical nurse. That would make nursing somewhat like teaching in New York state; certified K-12 teachers need master's degrees or must obtain one within three years of starting a job. It would also add years and thousands of dollars to the difficulty of becoming an RN...

Full Article: http://www.rochesterdandc.com/news/0413BA3TIOG_news.shtml

hmm. this could pose a problem, especially for graduates of masters in nursing programs. If I attend one of the direct entry graduate programs, graduate with my masters degree in nursing, will I still be required to earn a bachelor's in nursing, even though I would have a masters in nursing in addition to an bachelor's in another field? That would be crazy. I would hope that having the masters obviates the need to earn another bachelor's degree.

It will not come to pass. BSN programs are lacking in hands on. They center on menagement.....We have enough of them already.....

You have no idea what you're talking about...

I have been a clinical instructor for an ADN and BSN programs...

Each state's BON mandates the # of clinical hours for ANY RN program...

The only difference in clinical curriculums, was in 5th semester, my BSN students took a "leadership and management" class...They had a 12 hour/week clinical w/ this, where they eventually "took" the entire RN assignment, while the RN supervised...

Stop the ignorance...There is NO clinical difference between the 2 programs...

Specializes in jack of all trades.
It will not come to pass. BSN programs are lacking in hands on. They center on menagement.....We have enough of them already.....

And how do BSN programs lack hands on? Besides 2 years of classes we also had more than 2 years of clinical. At least mine did 8 hours 4 days a week on various shifts in hospitals to include CC units and this was in addition to our theory classes. No they dont just center on Mgm. I agree that to many professions today require at least an MSN and I do feel if we want to fall into the group we should require at least an BSN and no less then an MSN to teach but again yes it would result in critical shortages that just couldnt be managable.

Personally, In my eyes, the differance between a two year degree and a four year degree is a bunch of extra classes, alot more money and two more years before you can work on the floor. Now if your goal is to teach or specialize,great!! You need your BSN, but does that make you a better nurse than someone with a two year degree. Its not the degree that you hold, but the skills you have learned and apply, that make you a good nurse. My first preceptor told me something that I will never forget. Nursing school CANNOT remotely prepare you for what to expect when you first step foot on the floor as a new nurse whether a ADN or BSN, we all go throught the same orientation and training once you start working.

I went to a community college in the Philadelphia suburbs that hails an NCLEX pass rate higher than several of the four year programs in the same area. It was a very, very intense program and I was told at multiple interviews how my comm college nurse grads are sometimes highered over BSN grads applying for the same jobs just because they know how are program had a 93% first time NCLEX pass rate and they know of the schools rep for turning out quality nurses.. How do you explain a BSN program with a NCLEX pass rate in the 70s or below??.

But its not always about the degree, it has alot to do with the person .In an ADN program, the focus is strictly on nursing and pretty much anything that will relate to nursing. Like the previous post had mentioned, how are calculus and statistics going to really help you at the bedside?

It pretty much boils down to one thing, some people need their egos stroked and it makes them feel better to feel like they are superior to someone who maybe chose nursing as a second career due to job loss or lay off due to their job now being sent over seas. Or maybe whose spouse died and needed a career quick to support their children.

Anyone who is a working nurse knows that unless you specialize, or supervise, BSN or ADN, on the floor we all do the same job. No one is given more complex patients on the floor or put on a pedestal just because they have their BSN. WE ALL DO THE SAME JOB, and to all you BSN students, we start out making the same amount of money as you.

At my hospital we dont emphasize what degree each nurse holds. We are all RNs. Our ID badge does not have Jane Doe, RN. ADN,BSN,MSN,CCRN blah blah blah yada yada . We are all equals not to mention a magnet hospital. I am just disgusted with all of the back and forth venom between ADNs and BSNs. This battle has got to stop. It seems that the ones with the problem are the BSNs who feel they need the glory of a four year degree to make themselves seem more important. Just get whatever degree you want , do your job, retire some day and hopefully enjoy the fruits of your labor. When you die and are judged someday, God does not look at what degree you held. He looks at all of us as equals. Your degree is not going to get you a fluffier cloud or a shinier harp than someone with a LPN, diploma or ADN. We hopefully all got into nursing for the same reason. To care for the sick and dying and to practice with integrity. We are after all doing the Lords work.

I am sorry if I offended anyone, but if you sit back and look at the big picture, whats the point in arguing over this topic?

Specializes in ICU-Stepdown.

No, God doesn't care what degree you held. But it is MY understanding that those of us who are bikers will get a special area all our own -one with perpetually winding roads, low traffic, bottomless fuel tanks and perpetually clear weather. Rest stops will have beer taps and clean mugs to use, and the nights will be bug-free and tranquil.

:)

Hey, its MY idea of heaven so I'll have it MY way!

This is exactly why nurses are not treated seriously and the medical profession is able to control the wages and limit the autonomy of nurses. If we can't even make mature choices when dealing with other nurses who would expect us to make them with our patients. We know better but we still do it. We have done this to ourselves. We do not stick together we rely on petty backstabing and resort to the antics of adolescents when dealing with each other. I myself currently am working on my bachelors degree and would have to disagree about the management being the most important thing we don't even delve into this until the last semester. We are taught the same as ADN"s and are required to do clinicals the same as everyone else. It really makes me wonder about the poeple who become nurses when i visit this site. We are suppose to be compassionate and caring people and yet backbite our own. It is no wonder there is a shortage of nurses and that we have been kept in our places by the medical community. we will never be seen as professionals as long as we are pitted against each other and continue to remain divided. I really don't care if you are a ADN or BSN we are all nurses or working on becoming a nurse and face the same obstacles and difficulties. This site while useful depresses me when i realize how many people in the profession are petty and vindictive and just waiting to make someone else feel less worthy. What does that mean for the patients who are being taken care of by these nurses? Perhaps we really don't want to know.

Specializes in Adolescent Psych, PICU.
You have no idea what you're talking about...

I have been a clinical instructor for an ADN and BSN programs...

Each state's BON mandates the # of clinical hours for ANY RN program...

The only difference in clinical curriculums, was in 5th semester, my BSN students took a "leadership and management" class...They had a 12 hour/week clinical w/ this, where they eventually "took" the entire RN assignment, while the RN supervised...

Stop the ignorance...There is NO clinical difference between the 2 programs...

Thank you! Some people are so ignorant and it is a huge myth about ADNs getting more clinical hours than BSN program, and it is a myth that is forever ongoing on allnurses. We are also not loaded down with management classes, yes I do take Leadership our senior year---what the hell is wrong with that? God forbid we might have some extra classes to take! LOL More education is always a good thing. God forbid nurses might take Leadership, etc type classes, we wouldn't want that would we?

Where I live, every single nursing program gets the same clinical hours. Your clinical hours are determined NOT by the school, but by the BON and it is standard. We all start with 12 hours a week for exactly 16 weeks the first year, then we go to 24 hours for exactly 16 weeks our senior year. My school also has us do 40-60 hours of nursing related volunteer work in order to graduate (this is through our leadership class--lots of hands on stuff there as well). That is not counting our preceptor clinical hours in our senior year.

I'm in a BSN program. I work at the exact same hospitals, doing the exact same clinical hours as all the other ADN and BSN programs here do. There is no difference whatsoever in any of that.

Speaking of leadership and management, I wish that the "Leadeship/Management" class in my BSN program was included in my LPN program.

As a new LPN charging in a LTC facility, I felt ill-prepared for the charge nurse role that so many LPN's assume in LTC facilities. A leadership/management type class like the one in my BSN program would have been very helpful to me.

I think it should be part of all ADN programs as well. It's not just BSN's who supervise and manage so why isn't it included in nursing programs at all levels?

I'd also like to add to the comments about whether or not one program has more clinicals than the other.

The clinicals here (as well as other cities/states I've lived in) at the local ADN and BSN programs are comperable with respect to the areas covered on the NCLEX (Med/Surg, OB/GYN/L&D, peds, psych, etc.)

But the BSN programs, at least all in Texas that I know of, all have additional clinicals in public health, case management, and management/leadeship that are not covered in the ADN programs, so I disagree in this respect that the clinicals in both programs are equal and comparable.

As far as RN licensure and competency is concerned, yes they are comparable and equal.

But BSN programs do have additional clinical (as well as theory in these areas) requirements that I've had to meet as an ADN nurse completing the BSN.

If ADN and BSN clinicals were that comparable, I wouldn't be in school right now doing clinicals.

Granted, these clinicals hardly come close to the grueling intensity and difficulty as those in a generic RN program, and I believe that anyone who is able to complete an ADN program most certainly could complete a BSN program, but that doesn't make both programs comparable.

Speaking of leadership and management, I wish that the "Leadeship/Management" class in my BSN program was included in my LPN program.

As a new LPN charging in a LTC facility, I felt ill-prepared for the charge nurse role that so many LPN's assume in LTC facilities. A leadership/management type class like the one in my BSN program would have been very helpful to me.

I think it should be part of all ADN programs as well. It's not just BSN's who supervise and manage so why isn't it included in nursing programs at all levels?

I'd also like to add to the comments about whether or not one program has more clinicals than the other.

The clinicals here (as well as other cities/states I've lived in) at the local ADN and BSN programs are comperable with respect to the areas covered on the NCLEX (Med/Surg, OB/GYN/L&D, peds, psych, etc.)

But the BSN programs, at least all in Texas that I know of, all have additional clinicals in public health, case management, and management/leadeship that are not covered in the ADN programs, so I disagree in this respect that the clinicals in both programs are equal and comparable.

As far as RN licensure and competency is concerned, yes they are comparable and equal.

But BSN programs do have additional clinical (as well as theory in these areas) requirements that I've had to meet as an ADN nurse completing the BSN.

If ADN and BSN clinicals were that comparable, I wouldn't be in school right now doing clinicals.

Granted, these clinicals hardly come close to the grueling intensity and difficulty as those in a generic RN program, and I believe that anyone who is able to complete an ADN program most certainly could complete a BSN program, but that doesn't make both programs comparable.

I will once again say, that the ADN, Diploma, and certainly, LPN/LVN programs, do not prepare nurses for the real world. There is more to nursing, and being an employee in this day and age, than emptying bedpans, and giving report to the on-coming shift.

ADN and Diploma programs may prepare nurses to be excellant bedside nurses, but these nurses are ill-prepared for the politics that health care has become and dealing with the day to day stresses that nursing has become.

Nurses were like babes in the woods when hospitals instituted the devistating care changes ten years ago. We just did not kow how to react, how to defend our practice, and what our legal rights were in the workplace. We had no idea what actions we could have and should have taken, and indeed, too many of us were/are not unionized, or work in "right to work" states", with no workplace protections to allow us to inform the public what was going on.

Our lack of a unifying body, and workplace protections, prevented us from being able to reach out to the public, the way teachers do to protect the classrooms. The necessary education that can be included in a nursing program, take too long for incorporation into ADN and Diploma programs. There is just not enough time in a 2 year program.

Classes like, Employment Law, Administrative Law, how to start a business, Independant Contracting for nurses, Alternative Employment for nurses, bargaining in contract time, would go along way to "Immunizing Nurses", from workplace abuse. If you know the law, then it will be harder for hospitals to take advantage of us. The problen is, too many nurses are ignorant of Employment Law (your rights as an employee), and Administrative Law, which is the process that hospitals use in grievance procedures, termination procedures, etc. Don't you think it would make life alot easier if you knew the law, when dealing with abusive employers, and administrations? Prevent many situations from blowing up? An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure!

Then stop fighting the push for a higher educational level for nurses. It will only improve the image, (a neighbor just told me that "there isn't a nurse in this world that is worth more than $12 an hour"), and power of the profession. Education is power.

Lindarn, RN, BSN, CCRN

Spokane, Washington

Specializes in Adolescent Psych, PICU.
Speaking of leadership and management, I wish that the "Leadeship/Management" class in my BSN program was included in my LPN program.

As a new LPN charging in a LTC facility, I felt ill-prepared for the charge nurse role that so many LPN's assume in LTC facilities. A leadership/management type class like the one in my BSN program would have been very helpful to me.

I think it should be part of all ADN programs as well. It's not just BSN's who supervise and manage so why isn't it included in nursing programs at all levels?

I'd also like to add to the comments about whether or not one program has more clinicals than the other.

The clinicals here (as well as other cities/states I've lived in) at the local ADN and BSN programs are comperable with respect to the areas covered on the NCLEX (Med/Surg, OB/GYN/L&D, peds, psych, etc.)

But the BSN programs, at least all in Texas that I know of, all have additional clinicals in public health, case management, and management/leadeship that are not covered in the ADN programs, so I disagree in this respect that the clinicals in both programs are equal and comparable.

As far as RN licensure and competency is concerned, yes they are comparable and equal.

But BSN programs do have additional clinical (as well as theory in these areas) requirements that I've had to meet as an ADN nurse completing the BSN.

If ADN and BSN clinicals were that comparable, I wouldn't be in school right now doing clinicals.

Granted, these clinicals hardly come close to the grueling intensity and difficulty as those in a generic RN program, and I believe that anyone who is able to complete an ADN program most certainly could complete a BSN program, but that doesn't make both programs comparable.

Excellent post!

And your right about my BSN program having additional clinical time in areas the ADN programs do not offer such as public health, leadership, etc. More education is absolutly a GOOD THING, you can't have enough education and varied experience especially in the field of nursing. In my earlier posts I was defending the uneducated "opinion" that ADNs have more clinical time...which is absolutly NOT true.

I think one of my pet peeves is certain nurses with ADNs almost try to put down the fact that BSN programs have classes in leadership/management, as if they are a waste and unneeded...which has always surprised me. Nurses should be trained as leaders (both ADN and BSN and LPN--not just BSN programs) because we are NOT just the physicians handmaids, we are leaders in our own profession and so we need to be trained as such.

Specializes in ICU-Stepdown.
Excellent post!

And your right about my BSN program having additional clinical time in areas the ADN programs do not offer such as public health, leadership, etc. More education is absolutly a GOOD THING, you can't have enough education and varied experience especially in the field of nursing. In my earlier posts I was defending the uneducated "opinion" that ADNs have more clinical time...which is absolutly NOT true.

I think one of my pet peeves is certain nurses with ADNs almost try to put down the fact that BSN programs have classes in leadership/management, as if they are a waste and unneeded...which has always surprised me. Nurses should be trained as leaders (both ADN and BSN and LPN--not just BSN programs) because we are NOT just the physicians handmaids, we are leaders in our own profession and so we need to be trained as such.

It may be a pet peeve of yours, but by and large the criticism is from the BSN side against the ADN side, not the other way around. I'd be hard-pressed to find any ADNs who criticise those who have the ability and desire to continue on and get a higher degree. But I do get my own hackles up when a BSN student or graduate starts poo-pooing those of us who (for whatever reason) are ADN degreed only.

Many of us have our own reasons for the ADN level -not the least of which is we didn't have someone else to pay the bill, or provide us with room and board, or perhaps there weren't any openings. For my part, I went back to school to become an RN a bit later in life (I was older than some of my teachers, and only one other student was older than me) -I needed a program that would allow me to work full-time (which meant a night-program with weekend-only clinicals. They were very long clinicals, but we were able to get our hours in) Lets not even go on about the regular needs and responsibilities of having to make house payments and other everyday needs.

The resentment the ADNs feel should be understandable -by their very criticism and desire to make it mandatory that EVERYONE hold a 4 yr degree just to do nursing, would certainly cut down on the number of people who COULD meet such requirements -and for WHAT? So they can all become better future managers? You certainly do not need to understand the 'politics' of the profession, or understand how to start your own business, etc etc. just to do good bedside care. Many have absolutely NO desire to become managers or start their own businesses. I personally have no interest in getting involved in office politics. I've played that game, and quite honestly I'm quite sick of it. By making the cry that BSN should be mandatory minimum for someone to be a nurse, you belittle those of us who are NOT BSNs, but ARE RNs (or LPNs or whatever). Listen to yourself. Is it so hard to understand why we may lash back?

Hey, go ahead, get your wish and make it mandatory for RNs to be BSN. You won't raise your level of pay -the public out there (including that naive dimwit mentioned earlier who thinks Nursing should be a $12/hr job) isn't going to show any deference to your 'better' degree. As far as THEY will be concerned, you will STILL be an 'overpaid buttwipe', since that is the way dimwits like that view nurses. Having the BSN behind your name won't mean diddly to him or others like him. And management (corporate) will only see the need for nurses to fill the spots, and the bottom-line pay is X dollars an hour -congrats on your BSN, but youre still a bedside nurse and this is what THAT pays -period.

If you HONESTLY think I've got the wrong picture, then more power to you because you won't see it the way I'm telling it until you've lived the adventure for yourself. I've worked for large companies (the biggest being monsantos) and I've worked for counties -which act a lot like large companies and vice versa. I've been on the hire/fire side, and I've BEEN hired and fired.

You were able to go to a four-year college and get the bigger degree. Good for you. Its the height of arrogance to THEN decide that everyone else should do so as well -as a minimum. THIS is the attitude displayed by many of the BSN students and degreed in this "debate". ADNs have no particular reason to try to degrade the BSNs, but it seems many BSNs feel the need to do so to the ADNs.

-

then people wonder where the animosity between the nurses comes from.

I'd also like to add to the comments about whether or not one program has more clinicals than the other.

The clinicals here (as well as other cities/states I've lived in) at the local ADN and BSN programs are comperable with respect to the areas covered on the NCLEX (Med/Surg, OB/GYN/L&D, peds, psych, etc.)

But the BSN programs, at least all in Texas that I know of, all have additional clinicals in public health, case management, and management/leadeship that are not covered in the ADN programs, so I disagree in this respect that the clinicals in both programs are equal and comparable.

As far as RN licensure and competency is concerned, yes they are comparable and equal.

But BSN programs do have additional clinical (as well as theory in these areas) requirements that I've had to meet as an ADN nurse completing the BSN.

If ADN and BSN clinicals were that comparable, I wouldn't be in school right now doing clinicals.

Granted, these clinicals hardly come close to the grueling intensity and difficulty as those in a generic RN program, and I believe that anyone who is able to complete an ADN program most certainly could complete a BSN program, but that doesn't make both programs comparable.

Let me clarify:

The clinical hours for the first four semesters are the same for ADN/BSN...

Any extra classes that subsequently have clinicals (case management, leadership) certainly will add to the clinical total...

However, a misconception is that "one could start their nursing career 2 years earlier with an ADN"

this is laughable...

when I was doing my prereqs, the community colleges required the SAME prereqs...the actual nursing program at the CCs was 4 semesters, vs 5 semesters at the university...still the same today...so the 2 years earlier argument is WAY off...

the only reason I got my BSN was because the local university had no waiting list, while all the CCs did...

The only benefit that I could see to my leadership/management class was 108 more clinical hours...

In all reality, NO nursing program (LPN, ADN BSN, ANP) truly prepares you for real nursing...OJT with a good preceptor is where it's really at!

The person makes the nurse, NOT the education...

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