nurse call response times in Ontario hospitals

Nurses Safety

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Hello, all. To introduce myself, I am not a nurse; rather, I am the son of an elderly patient - my father - currently in hospital in Mississauga, ON. In fact, I am writing this from his bedside.

My father, 84, is suffering from renal failure and also has severe dementia and has been plagued with both for many years now. My mother, 77, has cared for him at home all this time. It has been a very rough road for a very long time, but with tremendous care from my mother and his doctor, he has - sadly in a very real way - persevered. That said, his doctor explained that should he ever need to go to the hospital again, there would not be much he could do, going so far as to recommend getting a DNR form registered. We agreed as a family and my mother has done so.

He is now in hospital since last Tuesday as he had experienced a severe increase in fatigue to the point where couldn't walk. The ER doctors explained that his creatinine level was 500 - very high. What we thought was just a rash from diapers turns out to shingles. They confirmed everything we had already established about not treating him any further and that we are looking a palliative situation. They were quite compassionate and we all prepared for the end. We were told we would be admitted and they would do everything possible to keep him comfortable. In a way, this was very much a relief as my mother was at the end of her rope and unable to care for him any more. That's when things went south.

Without getting into too many sordid details, the net result is that the care we have received since being admitted feels woefully inadequate. We have been in the hospital a few times before, so we understand the disjointed nature of the doctor-nurse-hospital relationship, but this round has been the worst.

First, we were never advised that the shingles outbreak would warrant isolation. The first night nurse saw the chart and went into a frenzy installing a HEPA filter in the room and getting everyone into gowns and masks.

The next day, this man who has no gas in the tank still has the werewithal to want to relieve himself in the bathroom. We - my mother, brother, and myself - don't know what to do, so we try and get him there using a comode chair. We're successful a couple of times, but one time not. Mess on the floor. Nurse calls are usually answered immediatly, but no one actually shows up for several minutes - usually well over 10 or 15 - while my dad is sitting in, and staring at, his own feces. Nurses walk into the room asking us what supplies we have. Gowns, masks, diapers - nothing's ready.

Later that day, after talking to a palliative care doctor and going through this conversation again, we were transferred to a negative pressure room. Again, supplies are constantly lacking. At one point, again after a bathroom call, I see the nurse running around looking for a fresh night gown and bed pad. No bed pad - using another night gown instead. Wait times have gone through the roof. Usually 30 minutes or more now.

My father has been issued sedatives to sleep at night so he doesn't try to get up on his own. My mother being my mother, is sleeping with him in his room every night. First room had a spot to lay down, new room does not - we brought in our own cot. Nevertheless, last night, my mom did not notice my had had gotten himself up and halfway to the bathroom. Thankfully she got to him just in time to catch his fall. No time to ring the nurse. After she finally situated him so she could call, it took more minutes than I would expect to respond - 5 or more, as I understand. What would have happened had she not been here? He's behind double doors as it is, then stuck in the bathroom to boot with no comprehesion that he's even in a hospital. When my mother raised the notion of a bed alarm, they told her there were none available. I may well spend the night tonight for fear of another fall.

As for nurse compassion, it's up and down, but mostly down. We've had really great and compassionate nurses at times - they are angels that make a world of difference. We haven't really had that this time, and most just don't care at all. We had one nurse who I guess just assumed my dad was deaf because he's old and literally yelled at him while he's half out of it. It startled the hell out of him and he yelled back at her. It's a revolving door of nurses here - usually no more than 2 days in a row with the same nurse and we are always starting from scratch trying to explain the situation and my dad's needs.

All this is to say nothing of the unbelievable lack of cleanliness throughout the public areas of the hospital - gobs of dust everywhere, blood on the walls in the bathroom (something I immediately brought to someone's attention, only to find it cleaned over 24 hours later), and on and on. This whole situation is feeling a little sureal. But I digress.

I apologise - too many sordid details after all!

Back to my primary question. Compassion and supply issues aside, what can/should I expect for nurse response times in a hospital in Ontario? Should it matter if the patient is in isolation? I intend to bring the whole situation up with patient relations - at the suggestion of one of the doctors, and I know I can't change the world overnight, but I would at least like to get an idea of what I should be expecting. If nothing else, to ease my and my family's own minds.

Any insight is appreciated and if you have bothered to read this far, my gratitude for allowing me a chance to vent a little.

Specializes in ICU, LTACH, Internal Medicine.
Hello again, all, and thank you all for taking the time to chime in. My original post clearly touches on a number of issues. One common theme throughout though is under-resourcing.

I cannot speak to how things operate outside of Ontario, but here, so far as I understand and at least some of you have confirmed, there is some sort of expectation of care levels. At the same time, if families/caregivers are willing and able to assist to help improve care when it may be compromised by under-resourcing, etc., then, again, a little guidance and compassion will go a long way. Indeed, we have been told by doctors that families play a big role in support. Hospital literature/marketing says the same thing - indeed it is printed on a poster at the nursing station - I can read it from here.

So, when it is available, how can family support be made to be a help and not a hinderance? There are a number of factors at play here, but it seems to me from what I am gathering here and have heard from friends who are also nurses that the role of the nurse, at least here in Ontario, has become too all-encompasing, filling all the gaps created by budget cuts, policy changes, etc.

A couple of examples:

1. As I understand it, when a patient is prescribed a drug in a hospital, since it is the nurse who administers it, they are ultimately entirely responsible, meaning they must themselves confirm that the drug they are ordered to administer does not conflict with any other drugs or alergies. On this, I would rather my nurses focus on that sort of thing and there be PSWs or the like available for bathroom calls.

2. Just today, we (not me, I wasn't here) were told by the nurse we were wearing the wrong masks. This from the same nurse who'd treated use all day yesterday and said nothing. Why? Because the Infection Control department came by and crapped on the nurses. From this, the only answer is woefully inadequate training. Something the IC department should be crapping on themselves about. That includes procedures for advising patients and caregivers, but also other staff. The food service and trash folks unwaiveringly leave our doors open and so on. By the same token, when the outside door was left open the other day, it stayed that way for over 30 minutes with doctors, nurses, etc. walking right past it. Only the next nurse who came in to administer a med closed it behind her.

The pressures are immense, and I get it. The notion of burn-out makes perfect sense. Still, the gal who yelled at my dad has only been a nurse for 2 years. (Something else I have learned is that many nursing students are not training to end up doing bedside care, but rather moving on afterwards to other specialties.)

I guess at the end of the day, it's no different than anything else. It's just that nursing in particular, certainly the way things are set up here, is the primary source of care and comfort for people when they are at their most vulernable and therefore so deeply touches the core of human existence. That sounds dramatic, but I really think it's true. Yes, as patients and caregivers we have a role to play in educating ourselves and participating in the care process, but when I walk into the emergency room, alone or with a loved one, it is the nurses who will have the greatest impact on how I cope with the flood of fear and other emotions to get through that initial transition and move on to whatever comes next.

Our experience here since admission after a deeply emotional 24 hours in the ER has been rough. We feel as though we are on our own. Frankly, we really are on our own. We are at the mercy of everyone and there is absolutely no sense that anyone cares at all that we are here trying to care for a dying man who we love intensely. Frankly, at this point, yes, I would rather go home and try and get some private help. And we may well end up there at some point. It is a sad and angering state of affairs for a public health system that my father has paid into his entire life.

Tonight, I will take comfort in the fact that we managed a bathroom run all on our own, my father is resting quietly, and my brother and I have finally managed to convince our mother to go sleep at home.

To all the nurses who are reading this, as frustrated and jaded as I sound, do know that I understand the pressures that you face and appreciate the care that you do give, especially those that go that extra mile. But also understand that as patients and caregivers, there is no medicine more effective than a warm voice and a reassuring word.

I am so sorry for what you are going through... still, I wonder: do I understand this correctly that you or someone else, presumably not your father, and able-bodied, was sitting for 30 minutes till a nurse came back and closed the open door in a negative-pressure room?

But also understand that as patients and caregivers, there is no medicine more effective than a warm voice and a reassuring word.

Hallelujah. I understand, my friend. I really do. Thank you for sharing your perspective with us.

Specializes in Pediatric Critical Care.

To all the nurses who are reading this, as frustrated and jaded as I sound, do know that I understand the pressures that you face and appreciate the care that you do give, especially those that go that extra mile. But also understand that as patients and caregivers, there is no medicine more effective than a warm voice and a reassuring word.

I think that you phrased this really well. Please know that, on the whole, many nurses also feel similarly. I can't speak for everyone, but many of us may sound "frustrated and jaded". I think that you understand (I hope you do) that despite that, we DO care, and we DO wish to provide excellent care to your father and our other patients.....and we wish that the system was set up to better allow us to do that (prompt medication and assessment, careful monitoring, and yes even the warm smile :up:).

Thank you for the level headed 'vent'/conversation that didn't turn into just dumping all over nurses (it happens a lot!)

Specializes in Psych, HIV/AIDS.

Fizzydrinks, my heart goes out to your dad, and your entire family. I have been following your posts. I am sorry you all have to go through this.

It sounds as though your Mom is coming to grips with the horrible reality that the end is near for your Dad. This, perhaps, will allow for you to move forward with future planning which has to be done. For your Mom to be comfortable to sleep at home tonight is definitely progress.

Would it be possible for your family to secure linens, supplies, etc. by asking the unit manager, aide, nurse (whom ever) where these things are located and getting them yourselves? Taking a bit of pressure off the nurses and helping your Dad in the meantime. Do talk (or write a letter to administration after your Dad has been discharged) to the unit manager to let her/him know the experiences with which you have been forced to deal.

As some of the other posters have suggested, if you can afford a sitter it would free up your brother and you to spend some time with your families. You need to take care of yourself, replenish your self to give you strength to carry on for what lies ahead.

The state that hospitals are in now is deplorable, putting nurses in the position to barely have time to care and have compassion for their patients, much less tend to their own needs, e.g. lunch, bathroom breaks, etc.

I wish you the best...take care.

Specializes in Acute Care, Rehab, Palliative.

Yes going back to your original question about the time it takes to have your bell answered , please know that this not because your nurse doesn't care. It's because she's busy with the rest of her assignment. If you are elbows deep in a code brown or a big dressing change and you hear another bell ringing there is nothing you can do but get there when you can.

Specializes in Educator.

I am so saddened to read your post, but not surprised. As many have stated before me, the reality is that nurses are overwhelmed and patients require more than they can realistically provide in an appropriate time frame. A sitter is great, but the cold hard truth is that as an attentive family you have assumed that role. Taking care of your father is difficult for you at best, and I question the appropriateness of his current placement. Once the shingles issue is resolved, I would seriously look at a facility that specializes in dementia care.

I hope you are able to come to an appropriate resolution and your father is kept as comfortable as possible.

Those wait times seem ridiculous. 30 minutes should be a one time occurrence not something that happens multiple times in a day! Your hospital must be under staffed. Do any nurses in Ontario know if OP can switch his father to a different location? Drive might be longer but care could be better.

In my hospital ratio is 1 nurse to 4 patients. Wait times over 20 minutes are unacceptable because of this (unless in a code/fall situation of course).

I am now instantly angered everytime someone asks my father what year it is. For pete's sake, look at his freakin' file. And don't dismiss me when I try to explain it to you either.

Anyway, I'm getting riled up here and off-topic. Back to the discussion of nursing, I will try and follow up with patient-relations next week and plan on a few more over-nighters.

Clinical staff are likely asking your father what year it is to assess his state of orientation. This is not a flippant question, it's a component of an assessment and is often necessary for patient's with a diagnosis of dementia.

Specializes in Educator.
Clinical staff are likely asking your father what year it is to assess his state of orientation. This is not a flippant question, it's a component of an assessment and is often necessary for patient's with a diagnosis of dementia.

OK but let's exercise some common sense here - the patient has dementia - already diagnosed. He will not miraculously know what year it is at shift change :no:

...Can't non-nurse resources make sure that there are enough supplies around, etc.? Really, nurses should be focused on keeping their meds organized, not the linens.

Your post made me sad... saddened by the state of our healthcare system.

None of us became Nurses to add to anyone's suffering. We are doing the best we can in a flawed system. I am sorry that you have had such a negative experience.

OK but let's exercise some common sense here - the patient has dementia - already diagnosed. He will not miraculously know what year it is at shift change :no:

I agree with you, there are circumstances where it's not appropriate but it also depends on stage of dementia. Also, I'm not defending that specific question.. I am talking about gauging questions. You'd be surprised... OK but let's exercise some common sense here, questions like this one are used as gauging questions. They are not asked specifically for the purpose of ascertaining whether a dementia patient literally knows what year it is.

For example, questions like this are often used when an elderly patient with Dementia is suspected to have a UTI so and R&M/C&S can be done to confirm and initiate appropriate treatment as this pt population does not always present with "classic" symptoms of UTI. Delirium is oftentimes the most common symptom of UTI in this pt population. Symptoms of delirium can range from agitation and restlessness to hallucinations or delusions. Asking gauging questions, or closed-ended question, and a variety of other communication techniques helps us to differentiate "dementia symptoms" from "symptoms of infection" etc...

Thanks for the feedback, nursinghealth. I guess I/we ultimately understand there are much larger systemic issues at play here. It is definitely frustrating and scary. Still, today, when I had to go out to the desk to find out what was going on after waiting over half an hour, the nurse told me she was on break when we called initially and that no one had told her. This is not systemic in my opinion - this is just not doing your job - the admin? in this case, or whoever answered the call on the intercom.

Still, so much of this can be mitigated with a little compassion. I can tell you both have it simply from your "tone" (not to mention the fact that you are bothering to take the time to respond here). Really, I feel tremendously better just conversing on this. You both recognize how important attentive families are. I can tell you that taking a few minutes to show some compassion and caring and recognizing our efforts makes all the difference in the world and gives us the tolerance we need to be patient (no pun intended) while dealing with the system. As it is, we often feel we are just pests, despite being told to call whenever we need something. It should be noted that we are not calling every 5 minutes, either. I'm only talking about 1 or 2 times in a 24 hour period. So, after having to call and call and wait and wait, only to have an insensitive nurse be less than courteous to us, you can understand how patience runs low and frustrations rise.

Yes, I have definitely contemplated hiring a sitter. I'm not exactly sure where to look for that as yet, but I will be investigating next week. I suspect this is something we'll need for some time to come.

Keep in mind sitters just sit with patients, they do NOT help with patient care generally. You want a private duty CNA. They can both sit with the patient but also care for them. All a sitter will do is put on the nurse call light.

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