nurse call response times in Ontario hospitals

Nurses Safety

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Hello, all. To introduce myself, I am not a nurse; rather, I am the son of an elderly patient - my father - currently in hospital in Mississauga, ON. In fact, I am writing this from his bedside.

My father, 84, is suffering from renal failure and also has severe dementia and has been plagued with both for many years now. My mother, 77, has cared for him at home all this time. It has been a very rough road for a very long time, but with tremendous care from my mother and his doctor, he has - sadly in a very real way - persevered. That said, his doctor explained that should he ever need to go to the hospital again, there would not be much he could do, going so far as to recommend getting a DNR form registered. We agreed as a family and my mother has done so.

He is now in hospital since last Tuesday as he had experienced a severe increase in fatigue to the point where couldn't walk. The ER doctors explained that his creatinine level was 500 - very high. What we thought was just a rash from diapers turns out to shingles. They confirmed everything we had already established about not treating him any further and that we are looking a palliative situation. They were quite compassionate and we all prepared for the end. We were told we would be admitted and they would do everything possible to keep him comfortable. In a way, this was very much a relief as my mother was at the end of her rope and unable to care for him any more. That's when things went south.

Without getting into too many sordid details, the net result is that the care we have received since being admitted feels woefully inadequate. We have been in the hospital a few times before, so we understand the disjointed nature of the doctor-nurse-hospital relationship, but this round has been the worst.

First, we were never advised that the shingles outbreak would warrant isolation. The first night nurse saw the chart and went into a frenzy installing a HEPA filter in the room and getting everyone into gowns and masks.

The next day, this man who has no gas in the tank still has the werewithal to want to relieve himself in the bathroom. We - my mother, brother, and myself - don't know what to do, so we try and get him there using a comode chair. We're successful a couple of times, but one time not. Mess on the floor. Nurse calls are usually answered immediatly, but no one actually shows up for several minutes - usually well over 10 or 15 - while my dad is sitting in, and staring at, his own feces. Nurses walk into the room asking us what supplies we have. Gowns, masks, diapers - nothing's ready.

Later that day, after talking to a palliative care doctor and going through this conversation again, we were transferred to a negative pressure room. Again, supplies are constantly lacking. At one point, again after a bathroom call, I see the nurse running around looking for a fresh night gown and bed pad. No bed pad - using another night gown instead. Wait times have gone through the roof. Usually 30 minutes or more now.

My father has been issued sedatives to sleep at night so he doesn't try to get up on his own. My mother being my mother, is sleeping with him in his room every night. First room had a spot to lay down, new room does not - we brought in our own cot. Nevertheless, last night, my mom did not notice my had had gotten himself up and halfway to the bathroom. Thankfully she got to him just in time to catch his fall. No time to ring the nurse. After she finally situated him so she could call, it took more minutes than I would expect to respond - 5 or more, as I understand. What would have happened had she not been here? He's behind double doors as it is, then stuck in the bathroom to boot with no comprehesion that he's even in a hospital. When my mother raised the notion of a bed alarm, they told her there were none available. I may well spend the night tonight for fear of another fall.

As for nurse compassion, it's up and down, but mostly down. We've had really great and compassionate nurses at times - they are angels that make a world of difference. We haven't really had that this time, and most just don't care at all. We had one nurse who I guess just assumed my dad was deaf because he's old and literally yelled at him while he's half out of it. It startled the hell out of him and he yelled back at her. It's a revolving door of nurses here - usually no more than 2 days in a row with the same nurse and we are always starting from scratch trying to explain the situation and my dad's needs.

All this is to say nothing of the unbelievable lack of cleanliness throughout the public areas of the hospital - gobs of dust everywhere, blood on the walls in the bathroom (something I immediately brought to someone's attention, only to find it cleaned over 24 hours later), and on and on. This whole situation is feeling a little sureal. But I digress.

I apologise - too many sordid details after all!

Back to my primary question. Compassion and supply issues aside, what can/should I expect for nurse response times in a hospital in Ontario? Should it matter if the patient is in isolation? I intend to bring the whole situation up with patient relations - at the suggestion of one of the doctors, and I know I can't change the world overnight, but I would at least like to get an idea of what I should be expecting. If nothing else, to ease my and my family's own minds.

Any insight is appreciated and if you have bothered to read this far, my gratitude for allowing me a chance to vent a little.

Everything that I would like to say is may the Lord have mercy on whoever tries to be the OP's father PDN....I had such family once, after they drove crazy ICU, med/surg and finally LTACH, they were sent home (as any other facility 150 miles around refused the placement). They first wanted someone with MSN to take care of Mother Dear for $9/hour, 24/7, with no right to use their own bathroom and no right to leave the room even for a second. After they got the facts, they spent a few months sieving candidates through for their most perfect match. They named it "care from heaven itself". The LOL in question eventually came back with sepsis from most horrific bed sore I'd ever seen and died soon, definitely not like in heaven, because even morphine drip did not control her pain. I had to call State and report family for elderly abuse,and, being honest, it was a guilty pleasure.

Any private duty nurse will have the ability to review the OP's father's chart and read the documentation to decide whether he/she would even want to accept taking him on as a patient. Nurses are not slaves, we are not the public's whipping post. There are some circumstances where Nurses can legally refuse a patient assignment.

Everything that I would like to say is may the Lord have mercy on whoever tries to be the OP's father PDN.

OP's situation is definitely very difficult as he and family now having sharply declining father and mother whose health is in precarious state as well. Grief, ancisipation, helplessness, etc., but it all still not good enough excuses for sitting there for 30 min and expecting someone else to run in and just close that door. It apparenly took the OP several DAYS and multiple promts to get that nurses have names and cannot work like robots indefinitely so that he wouldn't be inconvenienced. Sorry, OP, you were acknowleged indeed by every nurse on that floor... just very much not the way you anticipated.

I had such family once, after they drove crazy ICU, med/surg and finally LTACH, they were sent home (as any other facility 150 miles around refused the placement). They first wanted someone with MSN to take care of Mother Dear for $9/hour, 24/7, with no right to use their own bathroom and no right to leave the room even for a second. After they got the facts, they spent a few months sieving candidates through for their most perfect match. They named it "care from heaven itself". The LOL in question eventually came back with sepsis from most horrific bed sore I'd ever seen and died soon, definitely not like in heaven, because even morphine drip did not control her pain. I had to call State and report family for elderly abuse,and, being honest, it was a guilty pleasure.

Everything that I would like to say is may the Lord have mercy on whoever tries to be the OP's father PDN....I had such family once, after they drove crazy ICU, med/surg and finally LTACH, they were sent home (as any other facility 150 miles around refused the placement). They first wanted someone with MSN to take care of Mother Dear for $9/hour, 24/7, with no right to use their own bathroom and no right to leave the room even for a second. After they got the facts, they spent a few months sieving candidates through for their most perfect match. They named it "care from heaven itself". The LOL in question eventually came back with sepsis from most horrific bed sore I'd ever seen and died soon, definitely not like in heaven, because even morphine drip did not control her pain. I had to call State and report family for elderly abuse,and, being honest, it was a guilty pleasure.

Without this turning into a novel, sorry if it gets lengthy... the unit I work on had a family that sounds like your experience. They were heavily involved/overbearing, crossed boundaries, had unrealistic expectations, created unsafe situations, were abusive to nursing staff, the list goes on... This particular patient had dementia and dysphagia, he had behavioral "bouts" where he would become sexually aggressive/inappropriate and physically attack staff. This patient and his family were so difficult that our manager was unable to keep him assigned to a primary nurse... and 3 attending physicians actually dropped him as a patient. So, we nurses all had the delightful task of taking turns to care for this patient and his circus. A few nurses even quit to do private duty.

Anyways, you can only imagine how difficult feeding a patient like this was, but we did our best and he never lost any weight. However, his daughter accused nursing staff of starving her father because "he was never a fussy eater until he was admitted to this hospital!". I'm just going to use these specific examples, but she and her family were always dissatisfied no matter how empathic and accommodating we tried to be. They even reported one of our nurses to our manager and the patient experience office for "abusive interactions" because they believed this nurse was always scowling at them -- please note, this nurse had facial paralysis resulting from a stroke -- she is probably one of the sweetest nurses on our unit but she isn't able to smile because of facial paralysis! This complaint was obviously and swiftly dismissed.

This patient's daughter also would get angry if her father was sleeping when she'd come to visit, she expected him to be awake to engage with her. The hospital social worker tried to get her psychological counselling, but she refused. Instead this patient's daughter continued to accuse nursing staff of neglect and not meeting his dietary needs. Despite the fact that he was consistently assessed and monitored by our Registered Dietitian, nursing staff, the rest of the interprofessional team. His "sleep hygiene" issues r/t sundowning were being addressed, everything was being addressed! If he was sleeping when she came to visit, she would wake him up. We had her removed by security several times.

As for the food, because she felt we were starving her father...guess what this genius did? Please note, this came after multiple attempts to educate/re-educate and many family conferences with the whole inter-professional team. This patient's daughter would pretend as if she was coming onto the unit to visit her father, and the minute she was left alone with him, even for a few minutes (we soon discovered) she would pull uncooked hotdogs and tupperware of homemade spaghetti out of her purse and would hand-feed her father, because she felt "they are his favourite foods, you should be honoring that by letting him have them!". He was on a pureed diet r/t dysphagia, so her secret feeding actually caused her father to aspirate and develop pneumonia. When this happened, she unsuccessfully tried to sue the nurses for neglect because he developed pneumonia. Eventually her POA privileges were stripped and she could only have supervised visitation... but even then she continued to behave inappropriately. She tried to transfer her father out of bed to get him to the toilet, and he fell.

Things continued to escalate, so her father was discharged from our unit and and no other units could admit him because they were at capacity. It was suggested he be admitted to the ALC unit while a permanent arrangement could be found. But this patient's family decided to take him home, "where they could do a better job than this crummy hospital and you incompetent nurses". Within 24hrs they tried to bring him back.:roflmao:

They then asked for our assistance to have him admitted to another facility but he was rejected or "wait-listed" by every other facility (likely after reading the charting/documentation no one wanted to touch that mess) . The second time, this patient's family had no choice but to hire a gaggle of private duty nurses, all of which they would go through like kleenex. They tried to bring him back to our unit a third time, like literally abandoned him on the unit. They were ultimately charged with Elder Abuse, among other things.

Specializes in CICU, Telemetry.

OP, I am sorry that you are going through this difficult time as a family. I am sorry for the toll that caring for your parents is taking on you, and for your situation. I hope that you are able to acknowledge that you are taking your emotions and directing them at a 'safe' target. When you're overtired and worried and upset about your Father, you can't direct your anger at him, obviously. So you're grasping at anything you can, trying to control anything that you can, blaming anyone you can.

I think it's worth noting that prior hospitalizations may have been different because you were not sitting vigil at his bedside for weeks. That the expectation was not that the end was near, and therefore your stress levels were not through the roof.

I'm not saying your claims about inadequate/rude nurses and a broken system are not true. They may well be, and they are certainly true to you. I acknowledge that, and I will not dispute it.

I just hope that you are able to take a little time to yourself (go for a walk, sit on a park bench, truly think). I hope that you are able to really feel your feelings, have someone to emotionally support you in this time. I hope you're taking time to sit at Dad's bedside and be present with him. I hope you and your family are not so caught up in taking care of his needs in the moment, that you forget your own needs for food, rest, comfort, and support. I hope in 10 years you look back on his last days and weeks and can remember warm moments that you had together. I don't want you to look back and remember your time spent analyzing Nurse and Hospital behavior. Please be cognizant that anxiety and grief may be playing a role here.

Finally, I just want to say that having a DNR and a general understanding that his condition is terminal (which it sounds like you do) is VERY different from coping with these facts, and actually going through losing a parent. My heart breaks for you, and I really do wish you and your family the best in this difficult time.

I'm not in Ontario, so I can't tell how it works there, but where I'm at we try to get to call lights immeadiately. However we don't always succeed. If I have another fall risk patient. I can't leave them on the toilet to go answer another call light. On my unit a tech or another nurse would try to, but some days we are all crazy. The fact that he is in isolation likely doesn't help. It takes time to get suited up. Ideally we carry in supplies for the next time, but we try not to get a bunch of extra stuff in the room because anything that is in that room will be thrown away when he leaves. It's an infection risk to anyone else.

However er there is no excuse for lack of a bed alarm or lack of compassion. At least in my book

Specializes in Nephrology, Cardiology, ER, ICU.

AllNurses welcomes all posters but want to remind everyone that you are talking to a family member of a patient, not to another nurse.

Please be very mindful not to provide medical advice as per our terms of service, this is not allowed.

To the original poster - we are very sorry for your situation, but perhaps the best one to discuss your parents care is someone who knows them personally ie their providers.

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