nurse call response times in Ontario hospitals

Nurses Safety

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Hello, all. To introduce myself, I am not a nurse; rather, I am the son of an elderly patient - my father - currently in hospital in Mississauga, ON. In fact, I am writing this from his bedside.

My father, 84, is suffering from renal failure and also has severe dementia and has been plagued with both for many years now. My mother, 77, has cared for him at home all this time. It has been a very rough road for a very long time, but with tremendous care from my mother and his doctor, he has - sadly in a very real way - persevered. That said, his doctor explained that should he ever need to go to the hospital again, there would not be much he could do, going so far as to recommend getting a DNR form registered. We agreed as a family and my mother has done so.

He is now in hospital since last Tuesday as he had experienced a severe increase in fatigue to the point where couldn't walk. The ER doctors explained that his creatinine level was 500 - very high. What we thought was just a rash from diapers turns out to shingles. They confirmed everything we had already established about not treating him any further and that we are looking a palliative situation. They were quite compassionate and we all prepared for the end. We were told we would be admitted and they would do everything possible to keep him comfortable. In a way, this was very much a relief as my mother was at the end of her rope and unable to care for him any more. That's when things went south.

Without getting into too many sordid details, the net result is that the care we have received since being admitted feels woefully inadequate. We have been in the hospital a few times before, so we understand the disjointed nature of the doctor-nurse-hospital relationship, but this round has been the worst.

First, we were never advised that the shingles outbreak would warrant isolation. The first night nurse saw the chart and went into a frenzy installing a HEPA filter in the room and getting everyone into gowns and masks.

The next day, this man who has no gas in the tank still has the werewithal to want to relieve himself in the bathroom. We - my mother, brother, and myself - don't know what to do, so we try and get him there using a comode chair. We're successful a couple of times, but one time not. Mess on the floor. Nurse calls are usually answered immediatly, but no one actually shows up for several minutes - usually well over 10 or 15 - while my dad is sitting in, and staring at, his own feces. Nurses walk into the room asking us what supplies we have. Gowns, masks, diapers - nothing's ready.

Later that day, after talking to a palliative care doctor and going through this conversation again, we were transferred to a negative pressure room. Again, supplies are constantly lacking. At one point, again after a bathroom call, I see the nurse running around looking for a fresh night gown and bed pad. No bed pad - using another night gown instead. Wait times have gone through the roof. Usually 30 minutes or more now.

My father has been issued sedatives to sleep at night so he doesn't try to get up on his own. My mother being my mother, is sleeping with him in his room every night. First room had a spot to lay down, new room does not - we brought in our own cot. Nevertheless, last night, my mom did not notice my had had gotten himself up and halfway to the bathroom. Thankfully she got to him just in time to catch his fall. No time to ring the nurse. After she finally situated him so she could call, it took more minutes than I would expect to respond - 5 or more, as I understand. What would have happened had she not been here? He's behind double doors as it is, then stuck in the bathroom to boot with no comprehesion that he's even in a hospital. When my mother raised the notion of a bed alarm, they told her there were none available. I may well spend the night tonight for fear of another fall.

As for nurse compassion, it's up and down, but mostly down. We've had really great and compassionate nurses at times - they are angels that make a world of difference. We haven't really had that this time, and most just don't care at all. We had one nurse who I guess just assumed my dad was deaf because he's old and literally yelled at him while he's half out of it. It startled the hell out of him and he yelled back at her. It's a revolving door of nurses here - usually no more than 2 days in a row with the same nurse and we are always starting from scratch trying to explain the situation and my dad's needs.

All this is to say nothing of the unbelievable lack of cleanliness throughout the public areas of the hospital - gobs of dust everywhere, blood on the walls in the bathroom (something I immediately brought to someone's attention, only to find it cleaned over 24 hours later), and on and on. This whole situation is feeling a little sureal. But I digress.

I apologise - too many sordid details after all!

Back to my primary question. Compassion and supply issues aside, what can/should I expect for nurse response times in a hospital in Ontario? Should it matter if the patient is in isolation? I intend to bring the whole situation up with patient relations - at the suggestion of one of the doctors, and I know I can't change the world overnight, but I would at least like to get an idea of what I should be expecting. If nothing else, to ease my and my family's own minds.

Any insight is appreciated and if you have bothered to read this far, my gratitude for allowing me a chance to vent a little.

You're right, I'm sorry. I participated in beating a dead horse. Apologies.

You might want to consider your attitude. Since you continue to be snarky, rude and make assumptions about the abilities of nurses in this forum... Last time I checked that's not what AllNurses is for. I did mention UTI as an "example" which you took out of context. Out of curiosity, are you a nurse? If you are, did you just graduate? How long have you been practising? I ask this because a lot of your responses sound extremely GREEN. Also, because in the many years I have been working as a Nurse I haven't met one MD who will prescribe IV antibiotics based on "suspicion" alone and unconfirmed associated symptoms. The MDs I work with are thorough and cautious; they always exepedite and want lab results (R&M/C&S), and do their own assessment so they can prescribe the appropriate antibiotic treatment.

Thank you and have a nice day ;)

Yes and the OP has to realize that getting the patient up eventually isn't the best option.

I think that is going to be the most difficult thing for the OP and family to realize and accept... the decline. In addition to work experience as a palliative care nurse, I also took care of both of my parents when they were palliative, right up until they died. It was a gruelling experience being a nurse in the hospital and then being a nurse after work at home... round the clock! I wouldn't recommend it to anyone. So, I empathize with what the OP is going through... and (professional experience aside) because I have been through this twice with my own parents is exactly why I understand how important it is for the OPs own mental health to stay rational and manage expectations and exercise self-care. I am speaking in general of anyone watching a parent die... eventually basic ADLs (ex. mobility, even eating) become medically futile/contraindications and actually contribute to discomfort. To the OP I would suggest asking the nurses when it would be appropriate to implement "comfort measures" into the care plan and the OP should try to access grief counselling ASAP (either through EAP or CCAC or the hospital social worker) to help the OP manage stress/stay sane during this difficult time... and to ensure the OP has safe, consistent social support. It's sad, but loss is a part of life.

Those wait times seem ridiculous. 30 minutes should be a one time occurrence not something that happens multiple times in a day! Your hospital must be under staffed. Do any nurses in Ontario know if OP can switch his father to a different location? Drive might be longer but care could be better.

In my hospital ratio is 1 nurse to 4 patients. Wait times over 20 minutes are unacceptable because of this (unless in a code/fall situation of course).

@nurse1990 What area/specialty and where do you work with such excellent ratios? Are they hiring? How do I qualify? PM me amigo, cause I wanna work where you work lol ;) On a good day at my primary job (I have 2 jobs) my ratios are 8:1 and they're all fully dependent for all care (and require ceiling lifts).

You might want to consider your attitude. Since you continue to be snarky, rude and make assumptions about the abilities of nurses in this forum... Last time I checked that's not what AllNurses is for. I did mention UTI as an "example" which you took out of context. Out of curiosity, are you a nurse? If you are, did you just graduate? How long have you been practising? I ask this because a lot of your responses sound extremely GREEN. Also, because in the many years I have been working as a Nurse I haven't met one MD who will prescribe IV antibiotics based on "suspicion" alone and unconfirmed associated symptoms. The MDs I work with are thorough and cautious; they always exepedite and want lab results (R&M/C&S), and do their own assessment so they can prescribe the appropriate antibiotic treatment. Thank you and have a nice day ;)

I don't understand why you are upset with my apology. It was sincere. Did you infer a tone that wasn't there?

I don't understand why you are upset with my apology. It was sincere. Did you infer a tone that wasn't there?

Misinterpretation of your apology...I appreciate it and graciously and humbly accept. We're cool . You're gonna be great!

Not upset, but without your revealing it, I could tell that you are a new grad. I don't mean to come across as patronizing but BE WEARY OF PONTIFICATING you still have a lot to learn. We all do! Stay humble. Yes, you just accomplished a huge feat graduating and getting your license... but there is still a lot you have to learn. Nurses are made (and truly learn how to be nurses) on "the the floor" not in the lecture hall or SIM lab. I would suggest/ask you be kinder, a bit more cautious and more understanding/empathetic in your interactions with us older, more seasoned Nurses... one day you'll understand why we do things the way we do... and why we are the way we are... We're not always the most bubbly and we might work in a way that contradicts with what you were taught in your textbooks... it's a maturing process, when you have to come to grips with the reality of what you signed up for and it's not all "sunshine and grateful patient rainbows" and you repeatedly go through the agonizing experience of being present with human beings while they suffer over and over and over again over a long period of time.

Hello, all. I think I've contributed about all I am worthy of as a lay-person, certainly in terms of the original question re. response times. The discussion has been thorough and touched on a number of other related and important issues. Further to the posts pertaining to my dad's prognosis and other more general care related issues, I want to clarify a few points regarding our particular situation.

Regarding my father's physical health, he was always very healthy, until he contracted Wagners disease about 20 years ago. That was a journey in itself, but he was eventually diagnosed and treated (in this same hospital, I might add, when it was new and a model of modern health care), essentially making a full recovery.

Mentally, he has been suffering from a slow decline into dementia for many, many years now. When it started is very hard to say as he did a good job hiding it for a long time.

The dementia has contributed to a decline in his physical health if only for the emotional toll it has taken on him, leading to decreased physical activity, etc. In more recent years, he has had a couple of flare-ups of the Wagner's, sometimes complicated other issues along with a general decline in activity.

Regarding his support over the years, he has always lived at home, cared for by his wife. She is now in her late 70's and herself a heart patient, having had a heart attack about 10 years ago. She, too, has made an amazing recovery. My brother and I have done our best to provide support to her while she supports him. We both live relatively close, but both have families of our own, job, homes, etc.

Regarding my mother, as I have eluded to earlier, she is very caring, but sometimes perhaps too much so. She also faces her own challenges in terms of facing negative situations head on. This has sometimes made it difficult for my brother and I to engage in planning and preparation. Still, it must be appreciated just what she has endured all these years to continue to provide care, particularly battling through all the stages of my father's dementia. I would say that on the whole, we have fared pretty well.

With all of that said, the following key points should be noted/reiterated:

- we are acutely aware of father's current quality of life and have been preparing for the current situation for some time, to the extent that my mother has already secured a DNR order; in consultation with his physicians, we understood that the next hospital visit would likly be his last and that only comfort measures would be appropriate at that time; there is NO denial about what is going on here

- when we arrived in the ER, we were sure to communicate the situation which was confirmed by his file; as stated in the original post, we all - the doctors and the family - agreed that we were only to be taking comfort measures; we understood that palliative care was the next step and were told that his condition was to be monitored to establish his rate of decline so as to determine what level of palliative care he should receive (days vs. weeks vs. months); from all of this, we assumed, for lack of any communication to us to the contrary, that a level of palliative care would commence upon admission during this monitoring period (for the record, we received the news today that we are likely looking at days to weeks)

- we will NOT let our father hurt himself so long as there is any ability for us to prevent it, even if it means bending or breaking implied or explicit rules

- we are NOT, in any way, attempting to put any liability for anything on nursing staff

- we ARE expecting nursing staff, and everyone else, for that matter, to do their best to provide the level of care they promise in words, oath, and the posters slathered all over the walls

- we DO believe that managing the emotional health of patients and their loved ones is part of delivering quality health care, and this is re-inforced by mission/vision/value statements

- we DO understand the importance of taking care of ourselves and each other and are doing our best to do so.

We, our family, obviously just want the best possible care for my dad. We are doing our very best to work with the system and resources we have available to us. Of course, this is an emotional time, but no one is having any tantrums or outbursts and ALL staff are ALWAYS being treated with respect - even "shouty" nurse who deserved a talking to.

If nothing else, I hope out of all of this discussion, anyone reading/participating understands the importance and meaningfulness of their role. Specifically as it pertains to nurses, by the very nature of the environment in which you work, you have a deep impact on every patient and loved one you interact with. This will be positive or negative, but be certain there is no middle ground, no neutrality. I hope everyone will remain mindful of that and do their best to leave the paperwork and politics and the door when they enter their patient's room.

Specializes in ICU, LTACH, Internal Medicine.

- we ARE expecting nursing staff, and everyone else, for that matter, to do their best to provide the level of care they promise in words, oath, and the posters slathered all over the walls

Dear Mr. Fizzydrinks,

while I am deeply and with all my heart sorry for the situation your family found itself in, I can predict that this one, as any other encounter with pretty much any medical (as well as financial, educational, and any other) system in the world, will turn out as most unsatisfactory for you if you continue to keep your belief in those posters slathered on walls and not a most aggrieving thing commonly named "objective reality".

Misinterpretation of your apology...I appreciate it and graciously and humbly accept. We're cool . You're gonna be great!

Not upset, but without your revealing it, I could tell that you are a new grad. I don't mean to come across as patronizing but BE WEARY OF PONTIFICATING you still have a lot to learn. We all do! Stay humble. Yes, you just accomplished a huge feat graduating and getting your license... but there is still a lot you have to learn. Nurses are made (and truly learn how to be nurses) on "the the floor" not in the lecture hall or SIM lab. I would suggest/ask you be kinder, a bit more cautious and more understanding/empathetic in your interactions with us older, more seasoned Nurses... one day you'll understand why we do things the way we do... and why we are the way we are... We're not always the most bubbly and we might work in a way that contradicts with what you were taught in your textbooks... it's a maturing process, when you have to come to grips with the reality of what you signed up for and it's not all "sunshine and grateful patient rainbows" and you repeatedly go through the agonizing experience of being present with human beings while they suffer over and over and over again over a long period of time.

You're correct, I am a new nurse. I have alluded to it in my previous posts. I tell people every day that I have no idea what I'm doing, and I don't know if I'll ever feel like I do... but I'm told that's a good thing.

I re-read my response to your comment that upset you. I can understand why it did. I read 'tone' in it the second time reading it, but I assure you I didn't mean it intentionally. When I said "we" need to stop thinking in terms of algorithms and checkboxes, I mean all of us - including me! I hate checkboxes with a passion, they tell a disjointed story. I also hate policy just for policy's sake. Perhaps this is where my tone came from, but I assure you I didn't mean it the way it came out on paper.

Though I am a new nurse, I am not young. I don't think nursing is all sunshine and grateful rainbows. When I posted the link to the empathy video in a previous post, I knew I may be setting myself up to be viewed as an idealistic I-want-to-change-the-world new nurse. I may appear that way, but I don't think I am. I have been hardened by the reality of an unkind world. I remember being offended when a teacher mentioned that nurses must be 'altruistic.' I reject the image of the nurse as martyr. I know a lot of people say they went into nursing to help people, but I didn't - I went into nursing to have a stable career! I don't want to heal the world... I have a family to take care of, that's enough work for me! Boundaries, boundaries, boundaries. That being said, while I am at work I aim to do as competent a job as possible within the limits of my capabilities.

Anyhow, I apologize again for the miscommunication. It didn't come out the right way.

Dear Mr. Fizzydrinks,

while I am deeply and with all my heart sorry for the situation your family found itself in, I can predict that this one, as any other encounter with pretty much any medical (as well as financial, educational, and any other) system in the world, will turn out as most unsatisfactory for you if you continue to keep your belief in those posters slathered on walls and not a most aggrieving thing commonly named "objective reality".

The OP is charging Nurses with the responsibility to single-handedly redesign a flawed heath-care system, and complex systematic issues. It's not a rational expectation. Objective reality would certainly be useful here ;)

This is no different than, for example Student A who graduates with an undeclared major in university, naively believing that because they harness a degree alone they'll have a comfortable life... because the big business of education sold them the idea "on a poster" that a university degree is the key to comfortable future. Meanwhile, Student B who exercises objective reality and critical thinking would approach this scenario differently (if a comfortable life was the goal)... the objective thinking person carefully analyzes the economy vs. needs of society and chooses a degree/training with the most potential to = a comfortable life. Objective reality helps to steer you in the right direction, and produce desired results. When a person makes judgement driven by and clouded by grief/varied emotions... the results will never be satisfactory. Student A will suffer here and blame the most convenient scapegoat rather than take accountability, make better choices, recognize and acknowledge the institution they are dealing with.

The OP is angry and we're his target. The OP has made this crystal clear, and he's entitled to feel however he wants... but we're not doing him any service by patting him on the back and saying "there, there"... he'd benefit more from a bit of tough love and reality. Even if he doesn't like the way it sounds. Some of the best nurses I have ever met in my life were always regarded initially to be COBS, and *ITCHES... but when all is said and done those nurses are usually the only ones who can get a patient to "take their medicine" and heal. Even though the "medicine" didn't taste so great.... it's what they need.

It is NOT our job to give false hope or encourage delusions -- to do so is actually considered a form of abuse and goes against our professional standards. The OP needs help to get him back into an objective state so he can redirect his actions/judgments with rationality and clarity. There also comes a point where we as Nurses should and have a right to defend our profession. This is an informal forum and we have a right to defend the quality nursing care we provide everyday from mudslinging and denigrating comments that question our ethics. We are not "on the clock" on this forum, and I feel everyone who has commented/contributed here has been more than generous to the OP.

For the OP to tell us we are not upholding the nursing equivalent of the "Hippocratic oath" (simply because he allegedly did not have what he considers to be the ideal hospital experience) is just plain ridiculous... and I suspect that he may even be embellishing some of his story. It's become abundantly clear that what the OP is truly suffering from is grief.

I mean this sincerely, the OP needs to access some form of counselling so he can maintain a rational and unclouded perspective. As his charged emotions can, if they haven't already, start to affect other facets of this life (ex. personal relationships, job performance, coping strategies, etc...). Most hospital units, especially not an ER unit, is not an appropriate place for a palliative patient... they simply DO NOT have the resources to give a palliative patient with dementia the kind of care and attention they need. An ER unit is for ambulatory emergencies... not comprehensive palliative care. The OP wants his father to have the same tender loving care his mother provided and that is not rational, not appropriate (certainly presents some boundary issues) nor is it realistic. I am highly doubtful the OP will ever be satisfied with any palliative care unit that cares for his father. So, I feel it's best (for his family's peace of mind) for the OP to hire a private duty nurse so his father can have 100% of that nurses attention.... and so he and his family can feel comforted that his father has 24/7 monitoring without having to worry about the nurse being briefly distracted by the needs of other patients.

I suspect that this is simply a situation of someone who refuses to manage their expectations. Objective reality needs to be exercised here by the OP... because the focus is now turning away from the OP's father needs and more about the OP's needs.

To reiterate, the OP's father needs to either be admitted to a specialized palliative care unit (one that is equipped to take care of patients with a diagnosis of dementia)... if he and his family can accept that who ever the assigned nurse is that she will have other patients she is obligated to care for and thus cannot be at his father's bedside 100% of the time. OR, the OP's family needs to hire a private duty nurse. End of story.

Specializes in Acute Care, Rehab, Palliative.

Very true. The OP does seem to have the belief that we as nurses can change any of this. I laughed out loud when he mentioned the posters, made up by a slick management team that has no grasp on the reality of hospitals today.

Notice how the OP talks in circles in his posts? The seven emotional stages of GRIEF are usually understood to be shock or disbelief, denial, bargaining, guilt, anger/blame, depression, and acceptance/hope.

Potential Nursing Diagnosis = Anticipatory Grieving. I am not mentioning this to treat the OP like a symptoms "checklist", I mention this because I am growing concerned for the OP. The OP needs support that cannot be provided on this forum. I feel the way he's been interacting on this forum is revealing a lot of counterproductive psychological behaviors, and only contributing to fuel an unhealthy/misdirected anger. CCAC, the hospital Social Worker, or EAP are who the OP needs to be reaching out to right now.

Specializes in ICU, LTACH, Internal Medicine.

Everything that I would like to say is may the Lord have mercy on whoever tries to be the OP's father PDN.

OP's situation is definitely very difficult as he and family now having sharply declining father and mother whose health is in precarious state as well. Grief, ancisipation, helplessness, etc., but it all still not good enough excuses for sitting there for 30 min and expecting someone else to run in and just close that door. It apparenly took the OP several DAYS and multiple promts to get that nurses have names and cannot work like robots indefinitely so that he wouldn't be inconvenienced. Sorry, OP, you were acknowleged indeed by every nurse on that floor... just very much not the way you anticipated.

I had such family once, after they drove crazy ICU, med/surg and finally LTACH, they were sent home (as any other facility 150 miles around refused the placement). They first wanted someone with MSN to take care of Mother Dear for $9/hour, 24/7, with no right to use their own bathroom and no right to leave the room even for a second. After they got the facts, they spent a few months sieving candidates through for their most perfect match. They named it "care from heaven itself". The LOL in question eventually came back with sepsis from most horrific bed sore I'd ever seen and died soon, definitely not like in heaven, because even morphine drip did not control her pain. I had to call State and report family for elderly abuse,and, being honest, it was a guilty pleasure.

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