I have a question for both practicing RNs and students alike:
It's come to my attention recently that some nursing schools are on longer verifying that their students can do basic 4th grade math. By that I mean add, subtract, multiply, and divide without using a calculator. They assume that calculators will always be available and that therefore, nurses don't need to know how to do basic calculations anymore and don't have anything in their curriculum that requires students to do those things. In fact, they are aware that some of their students definitely can NOT do those basic calculations when they involve fractions and/or decimals. Also, the TEAS test now allows applicants to use calculators: so they are not testing those skills, either.
To me, that seems like a safety issue. There might come a time when a calculator is not available.
1. What do you all think?
2. Students ... are you competent adding, subtracting, multiplying, and dividing fractions and decimals?
3. Practicing nurses ... are there any times you need to use basic calculation in your work (without a calculator)? Can you give me some examples?
4. Is anybody verifying those skills in orientation anymore? (med tests without calculators, etc.)
brownbook you have just described me to a T. I can always do drug calculations, they way I do it isn't pretty but I get it done in a timely manner. Basic math test? After hyperventilating I will get the equations done. My problem has always been that I figure it out "my way" and I don't follow the formula that math teachers wanted, I got the right answer but was frequently marked down for not doing it the "right" way. I say if the end result is correct, who cares.
Or how about people just too lazy to learn math formulas?
We plot our own strips at the beginning of the shift, and I use the basic computer calculator to get the square root of the R-R so I can calculate the QTc. I had one of my coworkers sitting next to me when I did it the other day, and she went, "Wow, you actually know how to do the math behind that?! I just plug the R-R and QT into this app in my phone."
...Really? It's not like remembering to find the R-R, take the square root, and divide the QT by the square root of the R-R is rocket science. I thought that was a little scary. Anybody who works with monitored patients ought to know how to find the QTc. Pretty sure it's actually more time consuming to get your phone out, open the app, and type in those two numbers than to just use the desktop calculator.
I do think we should be able to do basic algebra. I've had a dosage calculation test during orientation at three out of the four jobs I've had as a RN, which I fully support.
Specializes in burn ICU, SICU, ER, Trauma Rapid Response.
I would like to mention that in our hospital's critical care nurse residency program for new grads going into ICU there is a dosage calculation exam that potential hires must pass as part of the interview process.
Its pensil and paper only. No calculators allowed. Anyone who can't do basic math functions, to include algerbra, isn't going to proceed the the face to face interview portion.
1) I suppose this "fourth grade math verification" is attributed to the student's high school diploma or GED. At least in the US, I think it's realistic that there will always be a calculator available. Google, phones, or even actual calculators.
2) I'm excellent in math and almost double majored in it. So far in nursing school, the most math I've seen is cross-multiply-and-divide questions, or mental math (for me) conversions questions.
4) My instructors have let us have calculators for all our dosage calculation exams, which aren't difficult.
I still don't understand why statistics is a prerequisite for some nursing programs...I think the only value in it is understanding research articles or conducting research.
I made a point of never using a calculator for the drug tests but finishing first. I get some people aren't good at math, but nursing math is the very definition of simplistic. In the real world, when exhausted in the wee hours, I may check myself with a calculator. I'm worried that those who cannot do basic arithmetic have no ability to check against typoing the calculator.
Cursive is a terrible waste of elementary curriculum far better spent on typing... or almost anything other than cursive. It belongs in an elective art class.
I still don't understand why statistics is a prerequisite for some nursing programs...I think the only value in it is understanding research articles or conducting research.
I think this is the exact reason for it. That and one less pre-requisite to complete when you start grad school (which of course they want you to do). It wasn't required in my undergrad but apparently I am the minority on that.
Specializes in Psychiatry, Community, Nurse Manager, hospice.
You would think so. However, judging by some of the questions posted here by students asking for help, one tends to wonder.
Okay, so let's say someone made it through high school without knowing how to add and subtract, divide and multiply. Maybe it happens.
To get into nursing school, they are still going to need college math (or algebra or whatever they are calling it), chemistry, statistics. In all of these classes, you are not going to pass without knowing how to add, subtract, multiply, divide.
So you can't say we don't already have a pretty solid way of ensuring nurses know 4th grade math. We have multiple redundant methods of ensuring that nurses know 4th grade math.
I don't know what you mean here. A high school diploma or GED should be verification that you can do basic math.
I don't know of any nursing schools that don't require that.
On top of that you need college math and chemistry.
Why on earth would you need to test whether someone who knows algebra and chemistry, knows how to add and subtract?
That's like testing someone who knows how to read and write on the alphabet.
The whole point of the thread is that it is now possible to graduate from high school and graduate from college without being able to do the basic math because students are being allowed to use calculators for every homework assignment and test. The TEAS test, NCLEX, etc. all allow the use of calculators now -- and many schools allow calculators all the time, too. So a student can have a 4.0 average in college and still not know how to divide 425.5 by 18.2. Or multiply 1/3 by 1/5.
In a few years, we may also be seeing nurses who can't read a hand-written note left by a colleague telling her how to change an unusual dressing. Or won't be able to read a copy of a hand-written note on a paper charge form ... or the history written by hand on the transport team record ... of the note sent to the school nurse from a parent ... etc.
I don't think anyone is arguing that the scholastic ability to do basic math is too high a bar to expect nurses to clear. I certainly am not saying that. I would love to see high and STANDARDIZED entry standards for all levels of nursing.
But I DO disagree with the idea that doing math by hand in the clinical setting is somehow superior to doing math with a calculator. Of course, you need to understand the concepts behind your calculations and have the ability to recognize something looks wrong if you hit an extra button and get a weird answer (always a good idea to check your calculations twice). You can use a calculator and your brain at the same time. Its the same as when medication barcode scanning came out - great safety tool, but you still need to use your brain. That doesn't mean there is something wrong with barcode scanning....it means that nurses need to stay vigilant even when using tools to help them do their jobs better. These are not two mutually exclusive things.
I don't see what is so disturbing about nurses using the tools at their disposal, and why you wouldn't teach them the same way during their schooling.
I haven't seen/heard anyone say that calculators should not be used in everyday practice. The real question is: Should nurses be able to do it without calculators in the event that one is unavailable? I use calculators all the time ... but I could do it by hand if I needed to. I know how to multiply & divide fractions and decimals. Many of today's students don't know how and couldn't do it if they had to. That is what some of us are concerned about.
I feel that this is more of an education system issue, rather than a nursing issue.
Thank you for your response. I am happy to read that you were required to demonstrate basic math competence as part of your education. Unfortunately, not everyone has had to do that.
...and it is a nursing issue because it is the nursing profession's responsibility to establish the minimal requirements for practicing nursing. Should the ability to do basic calculations be required for a license? Should we verify competence at those skills for new hires? etc.
The whole point of the thread is that it is now possible to graduate from high school and graduate from college without being able to do the basic math because students are being allowed to use calculators for every homework assignment and test. The TEAS test, NCLEX, etc. all allow the use of calculators now -- and many schools allow calculators all the time, too. So a student can have a 4.0 average in college and still not know how to divide 425.5 by 18.2. Or multiply 1/3 by 1/5.
In a few years, we may also be seeing nurses who can't read a hand-written note left by a colleague telling her how to change an unusual dressing. Or won't be able to read a copy of a hand-written note on a paper charge form ... or the history written by hand on the transport team record ... of the note sent to the school nurse from a parent ... etc.
Is this all anecdotal or is there some sort of evidence? As a current college student it would be impossible to have a 4.0 without basic math skills.
Is this all anecdotal or is there some sort of evidence? As a current college student it would be impossible to have a 4.0 without basic math skills.
Kind'a in the middle. Many schools are letting their students use calculators 100% of the time: that's a fact. So while it might not be possible at your school, it is very possible at other schools. As long as the student can type the numbers into the calculator correctly, they don't have to know what to do with the decimals in a multiplication or division problem.
The TEAS test has recently changed their policy and now let students use calculators -- and for a least 1 school, their TEAS pass rates increased dramatically. The school's investigation into the sudden jump in TEAS schools showed that the students were now able to succeed in the math portion of the test (using calculators) where before, they had much lower scores on that section without the calculators. I talked with some students in that school and they admitted they did not know how to handle decimals with multiplying and dividing and that they never could have passed the TEAS without a calculator.
The school said it allows students to use calculators all the time so that it doesn't matter whether the students can do the calculations by hand or not.
That led me to ask here whether other schools are doing the same thing ... allowing their students to pass through their programs without ever having to show competency in basic arithmetic. Based on the responses in this thread, it looks like that is the case. Students have to know how to set up the equations, but don't have to actually multiply or divide the numbers themselves.
Also, I have been teaching hospital orientees for many years -- and I see many orientees who can't do calculations with fractions or decimals unless they have a calculator.
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CKPM2RN, ASN, EMT-P
330 Posts
brownbook you have just described me to a T. I can always do drug calculations, they way I do it isn't pretty but I get it done in a timely manner. Basic math test? After hyperventilating I will get the equations done. My problem has always been that I figure it out "my way" and I don't follow the formula that math teachers wanted, I got the right answer but was frequently marked down for not doing it the "right" way. I say if the end result is correct, who cares.