man holding wife still during epidural dies!

tvccrn, ASN, RN · Jul 9, 2005

IMO this case will be won or lost on the patient's claim that the husband "assisted in a medical procedure."

This is basically what I have been trying to say. I apologize if I didn't ge that across very well.

If a Dad faints from the sight of the blood or for some other reason, it's not the facility that is at fault. I am not saying that I think the family is right for bringing this lawsuit. I am saying that the way the article was worded the husband was not comforting the patient he was holding that patient steady and as such I consider that participating in the procedure.

Littlewonder · Jul 9, 2005

I wonder if this hospital used a "support person consent." We require all support people (husband, mother, etc.) to sign a consent that states we are not responsible for them, only the patient. Still sad, but as has been posted many times - bad things happen in life. :crying2:

smk1, LPN · Jul 9, 2005

Most guys are afraid to admit they feel quizzy. I always explain that people become faint during an epidural placement and most times the guys insist "oh no I'll be fine". The ones that insist the strongest, tend to be the most likely to take a dive. Mabey it's becuse I'm a guy, mabey they would be more likely to admit that they are faint to a women. However when I notice them getting pale and tell them to sit down they all say "I'm fine". More offten then not I have to push them back into the chair just before they drop because they will insist that they are fine until they start to go out.
I think that we fool ourselves into beliveing it's okay to let them help with an epidural. I know it's very common however this is the only procedure we solicicite the help of a family member for and it is actually nessasary to the procedure to have someone hold mom up. That leagaly equates to dircting them to assist in a medical procedure.
Would you allow the FOC to help you transfer the patient to a stretcher? Would you ask them to apply superpubic pressure? No becuse if they hurt the patient or themselves it would be a liability to you and the hospital. The only reason we see supporting for an epidural differntly is becuase it is so commonly done. You have to look at it the way a jury would and Mr. Joe public is going to see it as assisting with a medical procedure.
Now I don't belive that the hospital or CRNA are ethicaly or moraly wrong here I do, however belive that leagaly they are going to be found liable.
From now on all my Dads are going to be sitting in a chair holding the pateints hand.
I will eat my hat (you know the big pointy nurses hat I wear) if this case is not setteled for big $$ or won by the family.

i guess the question then becomes what is the standard of care or written policy? A lot of people from many different places have posted that a table is used and a pillow. I myself didn't have anyone hold me during the procedure and i know someone else posted the same. If it is a standard of care or requirement that the mom be held in a particular position, then i suppose the argument could be made that this was definitely a nursing procedure and dad shouldn't be doing it, howver the same holds true for cutting the umbilical cord and holding an infant for the pku sitck or immunizations, so where is the line drawn?

TracyB,RN, RN · Jul 9, 2005

While I agree that this was a tragic accident that happened, I believe that the dad should NOT have been asked to assist.

What's next? Inviting family members to prep a patient?

I think she will win big bucks.

fergus51 · Jul 10, 2005

As several posters have already noted, this is NOT the only situation in which families help position patients. Parents hold their children for injections. Fathers hold their wives legs up during delivery and yes, I've had fathers help transfer a woman to a stretcher before (we're talking a STAT situation here). How is that any different?

It's time for individuals to grow up and accept that it isn't always someone else's fault.

HappyNurse2005, RN · Jul 10, 2005

Another non-nursing message board I frequent brought this up. A woman on there says she knows the family and posted this

While I feel like it is futile to give you details of what really happend (I was not there, but the decedent's mother told me), I can't let you all spit all over the poor woman who went to the hospital to bring a bundle of joy into their lives and came home a widow.
He was asked to hold her because the nurse said the maternity ward was "understaffed". If he didn't hold her, there was no one else available to administer the epidural.
He did fall back and hit his head on the floor. He tried to get up and was on all fours. The hospital staff put him in a chair, thinking he would come out of it.
He fell out of the chair AGAIN. This is the blow that the family believes cause the hemmorage.
When they finally put him in a gurney, they didn't have a trauma room available so he laid there for 5 hours. No testing, no intervention.
When they finally did a scan and saw the brain swelling, his family was told they need to wait and see. They didn't treat him. The family feels they let him die. He held on for two days.

SmilingBluEyes · Jul 10, 2005

Ah, "he said, she said" -----on this board or that forum......it's still all second-hand info......

The fact is, so far, no one who posts here was there. And I doubt in the name of jurisprudence, anyone who WAS there or is personally-involved, will post those specifics/facts here for us to chew on.

I do think we are more-aware, however, of the role significant others and family members should or should not take in such procedures. Whether or not that is a good thing, is up for argument. It's a very litigious world in which we practice and maybe we need to think more and more what a "prudent healthcare peer in the same situation" is doing and really practice with care. what can I Say? I was not there, neither were any of the rest of us here. We can only take away what we can use....

I remain very sorry for that family and their loss. I truly don't know how well a lawsuit will help the situation for them, or anyone (I lack the first-account facts)----but at least it got us all thinking and talking about it.

imenid37 · Jul 10, 2005

As several posters have already noted, this is NOT the only situation in which families help position patients. Parents hold their children for injections. Fathers hold their wives legs up during delivery and yes, I've had fathers help transfer a woman to a stretcher before (we're talking a STAT situation here). How is that any different?
It's time for individuals to grow up and accept that it isn't always someone else's fault.

AMEN. Often times, we give the dad something to do so he isn't in the way or to simply make him feel useful. He is not a medical or nursing care provider. He's a support person for the mom. That's why we have dads in the delivery room. Are there risks that his presence will cause problems? YES! Do we really want to go back to the olden days? Our hospital lawyers may want us too after this one. I have had dads hold moms during an epidural because the moms wanted their partner to hold them rather than one of us. I don't do this because I am lame or to avoid work. Did anyone think that maybe the nurse in the room tried to catch mom who may have started to fall when dad passed out? I don't know what happened. If mom and dad are falling. I am going to protect mom first. She's my patient. He participated of his own free will. I am sure this woman will get some compensation from her lawsuit.

sbic56, BSN, RN · Jul 10, 2005

Sad story, but no grounds for a suit. Such a dangerous precedent to set, too. Imagine the possibilities. What happened to personal responsibilty? Someone always has to pay when something bad happens. Ultimately, we all do. Someone has to put the hospital back in the black after these suits. This is just another example of a mindset I'd so like to see change in this country.

jwl300 · Jul 10, 2005

I worked L&D, and we always had family step out of the room for epidurals. We concentrated on taking care of the pt and vitals, and didn't need to be distracted by fainting family. For the fifteen minutes or less that it took, it didn't interfere with bonding. If someone truly didn't want to leave, then we could pull a drape and they could sit behind that and watch tv, prn. With the high rate of epidurals, sometimes it is a procedure that is taken for granted. However, the risks are there, and as I stated earlier, staff needs to be attuned to watching vitals and assessing the patient and monitor for early intervention. The toughest man may be able to take anything, however, when an epidural needle is being inserted into the mother of your child, nervous systems react and they go vagal.

allnurses Guide · Jul 10, 2005

As several posters have already noted, this is NOT the only situation in which families help position patients. Parents hold their children for injections. Fathers hold their wives legs up during delivery and yes, I've had fathers help transfer a woman to a stretcher before (we're talking a STAT situation here). How is that any different?
It's time for individuals to grow up and accept that it isn't always someone else's fault.

Hey, have you noticed that for now you are in my head and NOT Deb's! :rotfl:

Kudos Fergus - great post and I completely agree.

We have to remember that we all work in different areas . . . . there is ONE nurse. Having said that, I have never asked a support person to hold a laboring mom because I couldn't do it. It is simply a nice thing to do for a laboring mom - to hold onto someone who loves her.

And yes, we have had family help get someone onto a gurney.

steph

NursePamela · Jul 10, 2005

I think it was just a freak thing. It was not helping in the procedure that caused the accident but rather seeing something he felt uncomfortable about that made him go down. Maybe the error was not having a properly read CT done??? I was afraid to get my epidural and would have rathered my husband rather than the nurse, but I was too afraid to voice this.