kicked out of school- failed professionalism!

Lisa CCU RN, RN · Apr 16, 2006

You ARE joking about not having touched a doorknob in two years, aren't you? That would interfere entirely too much with my daily life!

I don't touch bathroom doorknobs for sure and I do carry Purell with me. I haven't had a cold in two years, so my diligence isn't for nothing.

I promise, I'm not as anal as I sound! :lol2:

Jo Dirt · Apr 16, 2006

How do you know this?
How do you know that the nurse was really cutting the wound vac foam too small? And telling her to stop? You're not her supervisor or the charge, and i'm surprised she handled it as well as she did, seriously. If it seems she's not doing things right, your instructor should be made aware of this. Ton confront the nurse was not a wise move.
To the nurses you questioned, it's not coming across to them that you're asking questions to learn, it sounds like it's coming across like you're questioning their skills and ability, and that you know better. Most people ARE sensitive when you have a student over your shoulder saying "that's not how you do it" or such.
In your opinion that is.

So totally true. You made the mistakes once, but TWICE?

You seem rather presumptuous, and I would not tolerate having you stand over my shoulder "stopping" me. If you can't see what is wrong with this then maybe you are correct, maybe you should not become a nurse.

GLORIAmunchkin72 · Apr 16, 2006

You might come across as "presumptuous".

I was just failed from a community college in Washington for questioning nurses while I was in clinicals. I was not even given the opportunity to explain what I was questioning. At the beginning of the meeting I was told I could grieve the failure, but I had already tried that at another school and I knew that the grieving process means that I was already doomed.
I questioned a nurse who was hanging a bag of lipids that had Vit K in it. There was no vit K on the MAR. I was not blaming the nurse for anything. I was just trying to understand if it was ok to hang. We called the doc and he said go ahead.
The other nurse I questioned was cutting a piece of foam for a wound vac. She was cutting it too small and I told her to stop so that she could look at the wound again before cutting. You know measure twice, cut once. She was an old LPN with 34 years on the floor, she did not like me telling her to stop. I only told her to stop to avoid ruining the dressing. She went ahead and cut it, ruined it and had to get another wound vac kit to do it over. I was not rude, but she was evidently sensitive.
I am sure if my instuctors had given me the opportunity to tell my side of the story they would have understood that I was trying to perform good nursing.
Similar stuff happened at the other school. I went to the zoo with some disabled clients without permittion; thereby, putting the school at "risk" for a law suit. I was with the other professional staff. I was not incharge. Yet, I was written up for this.
None of my sins put patients in danger. If you can call my infractions professionalism failures at all, they are surely not worthy of failure.:angryfire

Gennaver, MSN · Apr 16, 2006

I've gone to two nursing schools and have failed in both! I was 10 weeks from taking the NCLEX-RN in both programs. I am starting to feel that God doesn't want me to be a nurse. I am male, 51 y/o, and I have graduate degrees (that is right plural) in other fields. It seems that nurses feel criticized when I ask questions. I don't mean to be critical; I am just trying to learn. I have been in both a graduate immersion program and a community college program. I have been kicked out of both. I managed to get my LPN before the last failure. Is there anyway I can combine the hours between two programs to get permission to take the NCLEX-RN?
I feel like I am in LIMBO! Stuck! I not bad guy, honest.

Yeowch and darn,

Ten weeks away in both!! Then they dropped you?? Gosh, they must've really felt interrogated, were you aware before hand that they were becoming uncomfortable to being challanged? Shoot. Good luck! I hope that other posters have more practical advice.

Is there any way you could petition either or both programs?

Is it possible for us to inquire as to what topics were the ones that pushed your professors into dropping you from both programs? Possibly, possibly there may be clues for you there. Then again, just because it happened twice doesn't necessarily mean it is you, however, because it did happen twice hopefully there is a valuable lesson there which can help in the future.

Very sorry for you,

Gen

Gennaver, MSN · Apr 16, 2006

I was just failed from a community college in Washington for questioning nurses while I was in clinicals.
...
I questioned a nurse who was hanging a bag of lipids that had Vit K in it. There was no vit K on the MAR. I was not blaming the nurse for anything. I was just trying to understand if it was ok to hang. We called the doc and he said go ahead.
The other nurse I questioned was cutting a piece of foam for a wound vac. She was cutting it too small and I told her to stop so that she could look at the wound again before cutting. ...
I am sure if my instuctors had given me the opportunity to tell my side of the story they would have understood that I was trying to perform good nursing.
...None of my sins put patients in danger. If you can call my infractions professionalism failures at all, they are surely not worthy of failure.:angryfire

Hi,

The examples I left in your post above are highly relevant IF

1-your questioning of the nurse in clinicals was done in front of patients, then it is not questioning but, "challanging" that RNs integrity and insulting, IF there was a major problem that you felt I thought as students, we are supposed to take it to our clinical instructor and if it is something we feel is imminently dangerous to merely ask the nurse for a moment in private away from the patient

2-IF you demanded or ordered the nurse to stop and remeasure the sponge in front of the patient, then again it was not a request but an insulting demand. Why insult her integrity in front of the patient? Why make the patient feel she or he was receiving substandard care? If this nurse had been putting a woundvac on this patient for weeks and you come along and demean her in front of the patient...I would have demanded that you leave the room if I were her in as much of a professional way as possible.

Teamwork, support and professionalism is not a joke and this is not only an issue of courtesy but of professional risk. Feeding fuel for litiginous patients is bad. Being the rotten apple to upset your coworkers isn't good either. Bummer that nobody spoke up to YOU in your clinicals before this happend, pity for you that none of your clinical classmates told you to "knock it off" and to keep you in check yourself too. There was too much as stake to loose due to something like this. Best,

Gen

Joeleen · Apr 16, 2006

To get kicked out of school for questioning is crazy. I can understand failing grades, but questioning no. We are told to question what we doubt. However; I don't think I as a student would ahve questioned a nurse cutting the foam, It wasn't going to kill the patient maybe cost more money to use a new kit, but not kill the patient. I would have just watched learned from her mistake and when we left the room then talked to her. I can't imagine a student telling me what to do. There are some irresponsible nurses but if it wasn't killing the patient, or harming the patient. I think i would have waited.

AND nothing you do in the real world is what you do in school anyway!!!! So you have to do your own way of getting things done and that may have been her way. As long as it was clean, not harming, and done right. Oh well...

I would have fought this with all I had though!!!!

chadash · Apr 17, 2006

Just reading your post made me feel a bit uneasy. I am sure you are more than capable of being a nurse, but maybe you need to rethink how you approach your coworkers, particularly your superiors. I don't think it was a big deal that the nurse had to recut a new dressing for instance. That would be an easy harmless mistake, and worth letting her save face on. As for the IV, I think questioning and asking a question to gather info are two different things. Couldn't you have asked her, why is it done this way? while assuming she knows more than you do and she probably has a good reason. I think how you addressed this felt more like an attack. The thing is, no matter how much education you have, nursing is still a new discipline for you, and you need to respect others areas of experience and expertise. I know that is hard for us "old folk" ")

Crocuta, RN · Apr 17, 2006

I have been an RN since last may - but I will admit I had problems with a couple clinical instructors in nsg school. One incident - I would like an objective opinion if I was in the right or wrong.
Pt. had an order for IV push zofran - prn for nausea. I look at the order and perform the calculation for how much to give - it came to 2 ml. I go get my instructor to draw up the med and give it.
...
Anyway, as i pass the 1 ml mark she says "wait - what are you doing? You only need 1 ml." she made me push the 'exess' med back into the vial.
...
So as I get ready to go give the med, I look at the order again- it clearly states 2 ml. I thought to myself that I shouldn't say anything - somebody warned me not to cross paths with the instructors. But I didn't feel right about administering the wrong amt of med, so I just casually pointed it out to her in the nicest way possible, "It looks like this order says 2ml." She agreed, and so I drew up the 1ml.
This was a big mistake -
...
I just still wonder if I was in the right or wrong on this situation.

Odansteron (Zofran) comes in 2mg/ml, 2 and 20 ml vials for injection.

I can't say whether you were right or wrong in your calculation. You've accidentally mixed your terms up here so it's hard to tell if you really were supposed to give 2 or 4 mg. (Just FYI, I always draw up the whole amount from those vials anyhow - it's easier and faster to draw and then waste, and I think more accurate - but that's just me.)

The part here that makes me sad is the response from your instructor. I've seen the same behavior and it's so inappropriate and unneccesary. It is possible, of course, that the particular way you said it came across as you being a wise-ack. I have this problem and it's something that I've had to think about every day since I started nursing. I tend to be very blunt and I'm not very good at altering my words to ensure I don't offend anyone - which seems to be easy to do in nursing. I'm a guy, too, so maybe that has something to do with it. (Nurse: Why do you want to get your BSN?? You're not going to make any more money! Me: I just..want to better myself - you know, be challenged. Nurse to other nurse: He thinks we're stupid because we're not educated. :confused: I learned that I'm supposed to say "There are some jobs that I might like to do some day that will require it.") Anyhow, back on point.

The appropriate response from any instructor should be - "Well, let's look at the order and make sure that we both are seeing the same thing. Show me how you did your calculation." I mean, it's supposed to be about teaching! Students make mistakes. Huge, stupid mistakes. That's why they're supervised. Anyone who doesn't enjoy the challenge and joys of shepherding someone through those critical formative years should be doing something else.

Now the lesson that you should take from this is to make a contract with yourself that you will never, ever, ever be that nurse! Find the joy in precepting and teaching those coming behind you if you can, or learn to fake it really well if you can't. Students and new nurses deserve every bit of encouragement and yes, love, that we can give them.

CrunchRN, ADN, RN · Apr 17, 2006

I find it interesting that the original poster never came back. I do not believe he will hear what you are telling him, and that is probably why he was kicked out of the program's in the 1st place.

LPN1974, LPN · Apr 17, 2006

I was just failed from a community college in Washington for questioning nurses while I was in clinicals. I was not even given the opportunity to explain what I was questioning. At the beginning of the meeting I was told I could grieve the failure, but I had already tried that at another school and I knew that the grieving process means that I was already doomed.
I questioned a nurse who was hanging a bag of lipids that had Vit K in it. There was no vit K on the MAR. I was not blaming the nurse for anything. I was just trying to understand if it was ok to hang. We called the doc and he said go ahead.
The other nurse I questioned was cutting a piece of foam for a wound vac. She was cutting it too small and I told her to stop so that she could look at the wound again before cutting. You know measure twice, cut once. She was an old LPN with 34 years on the floor, she did not like me telling her to stop. I only told her to stop to avoid ruining the dressing. She went ahead and cut it, ruined it and had to get another wound vac kit to do it over. I was not rude, but she was evidently sensitive.
I am sure if my instuctors had given me the opportunity to tell my side of the story they would have understood that I was trying to perform good nursing.
Similar stuff happened at the other school. I went to the zoo with some disabled clients without permittion; thereby, putting the school at "risk" for a law suit. I was with the other professional staff. I was not incharge. Yet, I was written up for this.
None of my sins put patients in danger. If you can call my infractions professionalism failures at all, they are surely not worthy of failure.:angryfire

It just sounds to me, like you think you are the seasoned nurse and you are there to instruct them, instead of you being the student.

You say nothing you did put any patient in danger.....well, nothing the nurses you were questiong, put any patient in danger either.

It seems like you need to settle down a bit and be in the position of student.....position of seasoned nurse will come soon enough.

Also, I can't imagine any student being kicked out over 2 incidents.

Are you sure there's not more to this story.....that maybe things were happening on a daily or almost daily basis and people may have gotten tired of it?

I have seen new nurses that had what I call an "over bearing" attitude.

Sometimes, it's in a person's best interests to "listen" more instead of "talking" more.

NaomieRN · Apr 17, 2006

Mr. M Lanham , what puzzled me the most, is the fact you did not take any responsibility for your actions. First, you were only a student, not a supervisor, you had no business telling an LPN what to do. If you saw something, your job was to go to the instructor and report it. You took clients to the zoo without permission, that's a no no. What if you had gotten into an accident? You would have been in trouble with your insurance company and your school would have been in trouble as well. Didn't you think about that?

I just hope you can evaluate yourself before you try another nursing school. Since you already have you LPN license, when you work, make sure you learn how to follow hospital rules or other areas.

Remember, dont let pride gets in the way of your performance.

gr8rnpjt, RN · Apr 17, 2006

This is just MHO, but I think that the OP wanted the patients to think that he was an instructor and got caught up in his "role". Some people don't like to be in a subservient role and will go to great lengths to make themselves look better than they are. This type of man will never make it in the nursing world because their egos are just too big for a menial nursing role.