Justifying the cost of an Ivy League Nursing Education

oneday_nursepoundcake · Oct 20, 2019

Thanks for sharing your insights and experiences,@FullGlass! I'm very encouraged by what you've managed to accomplish.

FullGlass, BSN, MSN, NP · Oct 21, 2019

On 10/19/2019 at 5:01 PM, murseman24 said:
So why not just become a Physician's Assistant and trade the psychosocial nursing theory classes for hard medical sciences and clinical time? It sounds highly overrated.

Anyone is free to choose PA school over NP school. NPs are trained according to the nursing model of care, whereas PAs are trained under the medical model. Nursing does include concern for socioeconomic factors, as you should know. In addition, NPs have the opportunity to open their own practice and enjoy FPA in 23 states.

I don't know what the handwringing is about a bit of theory. I had ONE MSN class that combined ethics with nursing theory. Our school had condensed into one class, but they had to teach this for accreditation purposes.

I bet there is at least one class in medical and PA school that students find kind of useless. I just had an MD tell me that he thought med school should be 3 years (which is the case in Europe) because "Year 3 about all they seem to teach us is how to be assholes."

There seem to be some people on this forum that think quantity = quality. It doesn't. In Europe, MDs do 3 years of undergrad, then 3 years of med school. I haven't heard anyone complain that doctors in Europe are less competent than American doctors.

stockmanjr, BSN · Oct 26, 2019

Maybe one of you folks with fancy MSNs can explain this to me. How can you become a Master without any experience in the field? Friend of mine went to Columbia and she's struggling to get an RN position. Also, my CUNY ADN program had a higher NCLEX pass rate than Columbia did two years ago. 88% to 77%.

FullGlass, BSN, MSN, NP · Oct 26, 2019

39 minutes ago, stockmanjr said:
Maybe one of you folks with fancy MSNs can explain this to me. How can you become a Master without any experience in the field? Friend of mine went to Columbia and she's struggling to get an RN position. Also, my CUNY ADN program had a higher NCLEX pass rate than Columbia did two years ago. 88% to 77%.

From what I know, the direct entry MSN RN programs are for people who have a bachelor's degree in a non-nursing field. That is also true of ABSN programs. The term "Master" refers to the graduate degree, not the skill level of the person. The next level of studies after a Bachelor's degree is graduate studies at the Master's degree, doctorate, or PhD level.

As for your friend, we don't have enough information to say. Where is she trying to get an RN job? That is a key factor, as some areas have great job markets for RNs, while others don't. Some people also just don't have very good job hunting or interviewing skills.

I think the community colleges do a better job of preparing nursing students for the NCLEX.

stockmanjr, BSN · Oct 26, 2019

25 minutes ago, FullGlass said:
From what I know, the direct entry MSN RN programs are for people who have a bachelor's degree in a non-nursing field. That is also true of ABSN programs. The term "Master" refers to the graduate degree, not the skill level of the person. The next level of studies after a Bachelor's degree is graduate studies at the Master's degree, doctorate, or PhD level.
As for your friend, we don't have enough information to say. Where is she trying to get an RN job? That is a key factor, as some areas have great job markets for RNs, while others don't. Some people also just don't have very good job hunting or interviewing skills.
I think the community colleges do a better job of preparing nursing students for the NCLEX.

A Master's denotes expertise in a particular field. If you are a newbie nurse how can you have that? Also, Columbia gives their new grads a CNL. How can you be a nurse leader when you've never been on the floor?

Editorial Team / Admin · Oct 26, 2019

7 minutes ago, stockmanjr said:
A Master's denotes expertise in a particular field. If you are a newbie nurse how can you have that? Also, Columbia gives their new grads a CNL. How can you be a nurse leader when you've never been on the floor?

No, the degree merely denotes the level of education. Certification is what demonstrates expertise as experience is required to sit for the majority of certification exam. You appear to be associating the word mastery with a masters degree.

Barbiegirl1229 · Dec 10, 2019

interesting. Anyone else? Any other thoughts?

mrisajne · Feb 2, 2020

On 10/17/2019 at 11:07 AM, FullGlass said:
The point is that this is a personal decision. How a person chooses to spend their money is their business and no one else's.
That is why some people buy a Mercedes and others buy a Chevy, why some people shop at Nordstroms and others at WalMart. Who are you to demand justification for people's choices?
Hopkins is very clear that they are not just training nurses, they are training nurse leaders. In other words, their goal is to train the nurses that are going to be CNO, CEOs, public policy leaders, legislators, researchers, and professors, and so forth.
As far as income, my point is that a good income makes an expensive education cost-effective. If you think you can achieve that with a less expensive school, more power to you. But you don't have a right to make that choice for someone else.
As I explained in painstaking detail, most of these expensive schools offer great financial aid and the likelihood of winning competitive Scholarships. Notice you didn't touch that argument. So if someone could go to Hopkins on a full ride Scholarship, do they need to justify that?
You obviously don't know California. Most of California is very affordable. The Bay Area is ridiculously expensive, and so are parts of LA. The rest of the state has many very affordable cities. California RNs and NPs make more than in any other state, even when considering the cost of living. There are also a lot of jobs available. And as I said, California RNs have a union and safe staffing laws. As I said, there are RNs in Sacramento making $200K a year and Sacramento is quite affordable.
I'm so tired of this type of attitude among some nurses. Do you ever hear MDs ask about the cheapest, easiest schools? Do you ever hear MDs ask if an Ivy League medical school is worth it? If nurses want to be respected professionals, then they should value their education and demand the best. Would any loving parent just want their kids to go to the cheapest school? All the parents I know move to the best neighborhood they can so their kids are in the best school district possible. And they make a lot of sacrifices so their kids can go to the best college possible. Do these parents need to justify themselves to you?
There is an elite in this country, people. The elites go to a certain set of schools. And in any profession, there is the top 10% in that profession. Some of us want to be in that top 10%. What's great about the US is that we all have the opportunity to do so if we decide to go for it.
Given that the top nursing schools have more applicants than spaces, I'd say there are plenty of other people who feel the same way. And selectivity is also a measure of a school's quality.

Thank you so much for very detailed post! I also was accepted to both Hopkins and UCLA in 2016 and it ended up being cheaper for me to go to Hopkins as well. Unfortunately, I didn't end up going to either and repeated the application process for the upcoming 2020 class. So far, I have been accepted to both Yale and Columbia, two exceptional but very expensive schools (haven't gotten my financial aid packages yet). I am still waiting to hear back from Penn, Hopkins and yes, UCLA. I don't know about Penn, but Hopkins gives out a ton of money, UCLA? Not so much.

I definitely have some decisions to make and can't deny that the financial prospects will not heavily influence my choice. I understand that the school name may help get you the interview, but at what point does it truly matter? And to clarify, I am applying for a Master's program (Yale and Penn would be a Masters/NP program) and do plan to pursue a DNP or CRNA program after a few years. Would a great school (like UCLA) have less persuasive powers than an Ivy League name? I am genuinely curious to your perspective, and anyone's else that has one! I honestly would love to hear it.

FullGlass, BSN, MSN, NP · Feb 3, 2020

On 2/1/2020 at 10:03 PM, mrisajne said:
Thank you so much for very detailed post! I also was accepted to both Hopkins and UCLA in 2016 and it ended up being cheaper for me to go to Hopkins as well. Unfortunately, I didn't end up going to either and repeated the application process for the upcoming 2020 class. So far, I have been accepted to both Yale and Columbia, two exceptional but very expensive schools (haven't gotten my financial aid packages yet). I am still waiting to hear back from Penn, Hopkins and yes, UCLA. I don't know about Penn, but Hopkins gives out a ton of money, UCLA? Not so much.
I definitely have some decisions to make and can't deny that the financial prospects will not heavily influence my choice. I understand that the school name may help get you the interview, but at what point does it truly matter? And to clarify, I am applying for a Master's program (Yale and Penn would be a Masters/NP program) and do plan to pursue a DNP or CRNA program after a few years. Would a great school (like UCLA) have less persuasive powers than an Ivy League name? I am genuinely curious to your perspective, and anyone's else that has one! I honestly would love to hear it.

Congratulations! I don't think you can go wrong with any of those schools. the Hopkins name will definitely open some doors, but so will UCLA. UCLA has a huge and devoted alumni network, especially in California, so that is a big asset in finding a job. I advise go to the school that is most affordable and that you personally like the best. Best wishes.

TheDudeWithTheBigDog, ADN, RN · Feb 5, 2020

On 10/17/2019 at 6:53 PM, FullGlass said:
Wrong. When you apply for your first RN job as a new grad, that is the first thing an employer will look at. They will also demand a copy of your transcripts. And don't delude yourself. I've been a hiring manager. When I get new grad resumes, I definitely look at their school.

Bad management will look at all of that. I hire people for a company I help run. Honestly, if all you can bring to the table is that you went to Harvard, your resume is going to the bottom of the pile right next to the guy that spelled his own name wrong. I oversee an art department. You graduating from the most prestigious art school in the country means nothing to me. What I care about is your portfolio. I want to see the work you can do. I want to give you a chance to take my instructions and create what I'm looking for. If I have staff capable of training someone at the time, I'll take photographer who never went to college, but who knows his way around a camera and has the creativity that I want over someone who graduated from an Ivy League school but leaves you wondering what he meant to take a picture of.

It would be the same with nursing at most jobs worth actually working at. They don't want an Ivy League nurse, they want a nurse who's not going to be a danger to their patients. ANYONE can pass ANY licensing test in existence. Your school doesn't tell a manager whether or not you can apply common sense.

FullGlass, BSN, MSN, NP · Feb 5, 2020

2 hours ago, tonyl1234 said:
Bad management will look at all of that. I hire people for a company I help run. Honestly, if all you can bring to the table is that you went to Harvard, your resume is going to the bottom of the pile right next to the guy that spelled his own name wrong. I oversee an art department. You graduating from the most prestigious art school in the country means nothing to me. What I care about is your portfolio. I want to see the work you can do. I want to give you a chance to take my instructions and create what I'm looking for. If I have staff capable of training someone at the time, I'll take photographer who never went to college, but who knows his way around a camera and has the creativity that I want over someone who graduated from an Ivy League school but leaves you wondering what he meant to take a picture of.
It would be the same with nursing at most jobs worth actually working at. They don't want an Ivy League nurse, they want a nurse who's not going to be a danger to their patients. ANYONE can pass ANY licensing test in existence. Your school doesn't tell a manager whether or not you can apply common sense.

You are not a Nurse Practitioner nor do you hire NPs. I am an NP and help recruit NPs. Who hires most NPs? Doctors. And doctors care very much about the school one went to, especially for a new grad NP. This is true in any profession, not just for NPs. Why do you think pre-med and pre-law students work so hard to get into the best schools they can? Going to a top 10 law, med, or business school opens a lot of career doors.

As an NP gains experience, that will be the most important factor in hiring decisions, but a new grad NP does not, by definition, have NP experience. That is why school and GPA matter for new grads.

Reading this forum, I come across constant complaints by new grads that they can't find a job. Well, every person in my graduating NP class at Hopkins had a job offer upon graduation from one or more clinical rotations. Almost every doctor I sent my resume to wanted to interview me because of the Hopkins name.

Furthermore, it is not easy to find preceptors while attending NP school. Many preceptors refuse to precept students from crap schools. High quality schools do not have trouble finding preceptors. Crap schools don't find preceptors for their students. High quality schools find the preceptors.

Alumni also support alumni. I've gotten interviews because the hiring manager, NP or MD, went to Hopkins, so they have confidence that Hopkins turns out competent practitioners. A school like UCLA, which is excellent, and also has a HUGE and very devoted alumni, will also be a huge asset for an NP looking for a job in California or in the Western US.

Everyone should go to the best school that they can afford.

oneday_nursepoundcake · Feb 5, 2020

I'm actually coming from a creative field that is 100% about getting work from your portfolio. And yes, it is true that this matters (beyond school, etc.) for that kind of work. But, as a middle-aged person about to enter nursing school, a HUGE concern for me trying to embark on a nursing career is what I'll have to show for myself to get that first job. Or to simply make it through that first resume pile.

What is the equivalent of your "portfolio" when you're a new nursing grad trying to differentiate yourself?

20 years ago I never would've considered even applying to a private/"elite" college, but knowing what I've experienced in the job market in general as an adult (and weighing in factors like ageism as well), I think @FullGlass has some great points that I'm taking very much to heart as I try to decide if I'm going to accept my offer to Columbia.