Justifying the cost of an Ivy League Nursing Education

FutureRNnyc · Oct 17, 2019

19 hours ago, FullGlass said:
Why do people need to justify their choice of educational institution? It is THEIR decision and they are the ones who will pay for tuition and any loans. Some of them may also come from wealthy families, so they have plenty of money. People have a right to spend their own money as they see fit.
Do you expect people to justify why they bought a Mercedes instead of a Chevy?
My initial (non-nursing) undergrad education was Yale. In mid-life, I changed careers to nursing and completed an ABSN and then the MSN NP program at Johns Hopkins.
Ivy League colleges offer excellent educations and the chance to make contacts and build a network that can help one's career. The people who go to those schools are the people who end up running this country - look at Presidents, Senators, Representatives, Governors, Supreme Court Justices, CEOs - and how many of them have Ivy League educations - a lot.
The same is true of nursing. The top schools are not focused on turning out RNs who are going to floor nurses for the next 30 years. They are clear that their goal is to train the next generation of nursing leaders and educators. RNs can and do become senior managers and executives, even CEOs of hospitals. There are also RNs that become senior government officials helping to craft healthcare policy. A nurse, who was also a Rear Admiral, was appointed Surgeon General of the United States. RNs also earn PhDs and teach nursing, even becoming Deans of nursing schools. (Note: I am not putting down floor nurses - lord knows I couldn't do that job, but if my goal was to be a floor nurse, then no, I wouldn't pay for an expensive education)
I'm a California resident and was also accepted by UCLA for nursing, which means I got the lower resident tuition rate. UCLA did not offer very good financial aid. LA is also a very expensive place to live. Hopkins gave me a really good financial aid package and one can live cheaply in Baltimore, so Hopkins was actually cheaper for me than UCLA. About 1/2 of our class was from California, for the same reasons. I knew several ABSN students that had full-ride scholarships. Should they have turned down the chance to go to Hopkins for free?
For the MSN NP, I won a competitive Nurse Corps Scholarship - full ride, plus a living stipend. Students from schools like Hopkins are in a better position to win competitive scholarships like that.
Furthermore, schools like Yale and Hopkins are very committed to having their students actually graduate. If a student is struggling, they bend over backwards to help them. If a student flunks a class, they aren't kicked out of school, but given a way to continue their studies and graduate.
Quality of education - personally I think community college ADN programs do a fine job with their RN programs. Top-ranked schools like Yale and Hopkins also offer an excellent and rigorous education, along with the chance to do clinicals in some of the best hospitals in the world.
As a new grad RN or NP, a big name school can put a job applicant in a better position to get an interview. That is especially true for an NP, as it is MDs who generally hire NPs and they are very aware of the "best" schools. Most of the MDs who interviewed me were up front and said they wanted to meet me because I went to Hopkins.
At least in California, RNs can make great money. We've had discussions here about Kaiser RNs making $200K a year. A friend just sent me RN job listings from Santa Clara County paying $150K to $190K per year - dozens of them. "In California, registered nurses (RNs) earn more than in any other state at $102,700, and they enjoy an above-average job outlook thanks to greater availability of medical coverage and advances in medicine. It is expected that some 20,637 new RN positions will become available in CA in 2019 . . . "
https://www.nursingprocess.org/rn-salary/california/
That type of pay is adequate to financially justify the cost of an Ivy League or equivalent school.

Hello,

Thanks for your post it was very informative. I am actually looking to get my nursing degree in NYC and then moving to California. Do you know what exam you need to take in order to be able to work in California. A lot of people say its best to just move to California and start school there to be certified but I feel like schools in NYC are better. I have lived here my whole life and looking to move later to be with my partner but I want to figure everything out before hand. Thank you

**NICU Guy, BSN, RN** · Oct 17, 2019

19 hours ago, FullGlass said:
It is THEIR decision and they are the ones will pay for tuition and any loans. Some of them may also come from wealthy families, so they have plenty of money.

If you can afford the tuition and cost of living, then go ahead and go to the Ivy league school. But, in most of the country the school you graduated from doesn't matter to the hospitals and is not worth the expense.

19 hours ago, FullGlass said:
Furthermore, schools like Yale and Hopkins are very committed to having their students actually graduate. If a student is struggling, they bend over backwards to help them. If a student flunks a class, they aren't kicked out of school, but given a way to continue their studies and graduate.

So does practically every community college and state university. They want their students to succeed which helps the school's reputation.

19 hours ago, FullGlass said:
At least in California, RNs can make great money. We've had discussions here about Kaiser RNs making $200K a year. A friend just sent me RN job listings from Santa Clara County paying $150K to $190K per year - dozens of them. "In California, registered nurses (RNs) earn more than in any other state at $102,700, and they enjoy an above-average job outlook thanks to greater availability of medical coverage and advances in medicine.

and you can get the same job with the same pay by graduating from a state university. They are not paying more for an Ivy League education. They may pay the highest salary for nurses in the country, but also have the highest cost of living. That is why employees of Google making $150k/yr are living in their parking lot because there is no way they can save enough money for a down payment to buy a house by renting in Silicon Valley. My $200k house in Indiana would cost $2 million in certain parts of California.

FullGlass, BSN, MSN, NP · Oct 17, 2019

2 hours ago, FutureRNnyc said:
Hello,
Thanks for your post it was very informative. I am actually looking to get my nursing degree in NYC and then moving to California. Do you know what exam you need to take in order to be able to work in California. A lot of people say its best to just move to California and start school there to be certified but I feel like schools in NYC are better. I have lived here my whole life and looking to move later to be with my partner but I want to figure everything out before hand. Thank you

There is no special test to work in California as an RN - it's the NCLEX like everywhere else. California takes forever to process the license application, you might be better off working in NY for a year or two then move to California. Good luck.

FullGlass, BSN, MSN, NP · Oct 17, 2019

2 hours ago, NICU Guy said:
If you can afford the tuition and cost of living, then go ahead and go to the Ivy league school. But, in most of the country the school you graduated from doesn't matter to the hospitals and is not worth the expense.
So does practically every community college and state university. They want their students to succeed which helps the school's reputation.
and you can get the same job with the same pay by graduating from a state university. They are not paying more for an Ivy League education. They may pay the highest salary for nurses in the country, but also have the highest cost of living. That is why employees of Google making $150k/yr are living in their parking lot because there is no way they can save enough money for a down payment to buy a house by renting in Silicon Valley. My $200k house in Indiana would cost $2 million in certain parts of California.

The point is that this is a personal decision. How a person chooses to spend their money is their business and no one else's.

That is why some people buy a Mercedes and others buy a Chevy, why some people shop at Nordstroms and others at WalMart. Who are you to demand justification for people's choices?

Hopkins is very clear that they are not just training nurses, they are training nurse leaders. In other words, their goal is to train the nurses that are going to be CNO, CEOs, public policy leaders, legislators, researchers, and professors, and so forth.

As far as income, my point is that a good income makes an expensive education cost-effective. If you think you can achieve that with a less expensive school, more power to you. But you don't have a right to make that choice for someone else.

As I explained in painstaking detail, most of these expensive schools offer great financial aid and the likelihood of winning competitive scholarships. Notice you didn't touch that argument. So if someone could go to Hopkins on a full ride scholarship, do they need to justify that?

You obviously don't know California. Most of California is very affordable. The Bay Area is ridiculously expensive, and so are parts of LA. The rest of the state has many very affordable cities. California RNs and NPs make more than in any other state, even when considering the cost of living. There are also a lot of jobs available. And as I said, California RNs have a union and safe staffing laws. As I said, there are RNs in Sacramento making $200K a year and Sacramento is quite affordable.

I'm so tired of this type of attitude among some nurses. Do you ever hear MDs ask about the cheapest, easiest schools? Do you ever hear MDs ask if an Ivy League medical school is worth it? If nurses want to be respected professionals, then they should value their education and demand the best. Would any loving parent just want their kids to go to the cheapest school? All the parents I know move to the best neighborhood they can so their kids are in the best school district possible. And they make a lot of sacrifices so their kids can go to the best college possible. Do these parents need to justify themselves to you?

There is an elite in this country, people. The elites go to a certain set of schools. And in any profession, there is the top 10% in that profession. Some of us want to be in that top 10%. What's great about the US is that we all have the opportunity to do so if we decide to go for it.

Given that the top nursing schools have more applicants than spaces, I'd say there are plenty of other people who feel the same way. And selectivity is also a measure of a school's quality.

Rionoir, ADN, RN · Oct 17, 2019

No one knows where you went to nursing school, and no one is going to ask except out of curiosity. People WILL ask (and care) where a doctor went to medical school.

FullGlass, BSN, MSN, NP · Oct 17, 2019

36 minutes ago, Rionoir said:
No one knows where you went to nursing school, and no one is going to ask except out of curiosity. People WILL ask (and care) where a doctor went to medical school.

Wrong. When you apply for your first RN job as a new grad, that is the first thing an employer will look at. They will also demand a copy of your transcripts. And don't delude yourself. I've been a hiring manager. When I get new grad resumes, I definitely look at their school. In addition, some schools have very large and powerful alumni networks. UCLA is great example for California - very loyal alumni who will definitely give more consideration to a UCLA grad. In Baltimore-Washington DC, Johns Hopkins and U of Maryland grads are going to be rated higher on initial evaluation.

Good community colleges can also have an "in" in their area. I'm from North San Diego County, which has 2 fine ADN nursing programs - Mira Costa and Palomar. Their grads get hired by the best hospitals in San Diego County, such as UCSD, the VA, Scripps, and Sharp, but that is because the students do clinicals there and there are also alumni from those schools working there. A new grad moving to San Diego County who has gone to a school with no name recognition will be at a disadvantage when looking for work.

murseman24, MSN, CRNA · Oct 18, 2019

1 hour ago, FullGlass said:
Wrong. When you apply for your first RN job as a new grad, that is the first thing an employer will look at. They will also demand a copy of your transcripts. And don't delude yourself. I've been a hiring manager. When I get new grad resumes, I definitely look at their school. In addition, some schools have very large and powerful alumni networks. UCLA is great example for California - very loyal alumni who will definitely give more consideration to a UCLA grad. In Baltimore-Washington DC, Johns Hopkins and U of Maryland grads are going to be rated higher on initial evaluation.
Good community colleges can also have an "in" in their area. I'm from North San Diego County, which has 2 fine ADN nursing programs - Mira Costa and Palomar. Their grads get hired by the best hospitals in San Diego County, such as UCSD, the VA, Scripps, and Sharp, but that is because the students do clinicals there and there are also alumni from those schools working there. A new grad moving to San Diego County who has gone to a school with no name recognition will be at a disadvantage when looking for work.

FullGlass, I believe you are correct. An Ivy League education is a gold star on any resume. I think the question is does it really make enough of a difference to pursue for a nursing degree? As you previously stated, a scholarship for said school that would reduce the cost to at or below a less famous school would make the argument invalid (obviously).

The truth of the matter is nursing school teaches you how to be a nurse, a floor nurse. Like, the basics of NURSING. It's not worth it. It all pays the same and we all have the same responsibilities, give me a break.

If you want to be upper management at a hospital perhaps an MBA or MHA would be more appropriate. A BSN does not prepare you for CNO or to be surgeon general, no matter how fancy the school that taught you nursing theory is.

A "better" school for APRN or CRNA practice on the other hand will probably give you more "bang for your buck".

The reason Ivy League education is more advantageous for business, law, or medicine is that there are REALLY good and REALLY competitive positions out there for these fields. Floor nursing, new grad, is the same position the person sitting next to you that graduated from community college got.

FullGlass, BSN, MSN, NP · Oct 18, 2019

2 hours ago, murseman24 said:
FullGlass, I believe you are correct. An Ivy League education is a gold star on any resume. I think the question is does it really make enough of a difference to pursue for a nursing degree? As you previously stated, a scholarship for said school that would reduce the cost to at or below a less famous school would make the argument invalid (obviously).
The truth of the matter is nursing school teaches you how to be a nurse, a floor nurse. Like, the basics of NURSING. It's not worth it. It all pays the same and we all have the same responsibilities, give me a break.
If you want to be upper management at a hospital perhaps an MBA or MHA would be more appropriate. A BSN does not prepare you for CNO or to be surgeon general, no matter how fancy the school that taught you nursing theory is.
A "better" school for APRN or CRNA practice on the other hand will probably give you more "bang for your buck".
The reason Ivy League education is more advantageous for business, law, or medicine is that there are REALLY good and REALLY competitive positions out there for these fields. Floor nursing, new grad, is the same position the person sitting next to you that graduated from community college got.

You make some valid points. What most people don't realize is that very few people who go to Hopkins or and Ivy League school pay full price. As I stated, as a California resident, Hopkins was cheaper than UCLA, at least for me, with the financial aid I received. Think about that - Hopkins was cheaper than a public university. For example, Princeton provides financial aid for students whose family incomes are up to $150K. These schools have huge endowments, so they can be generous with aid.

In addition, I tried to explain that Hopkins is not focused on teaching future floor nurses alone, and I stated that if someone's goal is to be a floor nurse and that's it, then I wouldn't recommend a school like Hopkins. Yes, they do a good job of that, but their mission is to educate nurse leaders. They literally told us constantly, "We don't just train nurses, we train nurse leaders." In line with that, they no longer offer a BSN or ABSN degree. Their RN degree is now an MSN. I was offered 2 Director level positions as a new grad NP. After little more than 1 year of NP experience, I was offered an Assistant Medical Director position.

Nursing is a profession and again, there is an "elite" of RNs who become leaders in the field - executives, policy leaders, academic instructors and researchers. And to get into a top MBA program like Harvard or Northwestern, one's undergrad school matters. Almost all of the MSN NP students at Hopkins either went to Hopkins or other top schools like the Ivy Leagues, UCLA, UC Berkeley, etc.

Again, given that the top schools like Hopkins, Yale, U Penn, etc turn away most applicants, there clearly is no shortage of people who do think it is worth it.

Whether or not a top school is "worth it" is an individual decision and also includes some subjective judgments. Here is my opinion on why it may be worth it to some people:

1. An outstanding education. I've read enough on this forum to appreciate I had a great nursing education. Many of our professors are nationally and even internationally recognized leaders in their areas.

2. A leg up on getting a job, especially that first job, and especially at elite teaching hospitals nationally.

3. For those who plan to pursue graduate degrees, a leg up on getting into a top grad program.

4. Those of you who play sports know you learn the most by playing against top athletes. Going to a school like Hopkins, you are with the best, and you have to be at the top of your game. It makes you reach and grow. Furthermore, when you are surrounded by highly intelligent and accomplished people, you learn from them. I was awed by how intelligent and accomplished my peers were, and a bit intimidated, too.

5. Being on the Hopkins Medical Campus was an incredible experience. Not only did we have clinicals in the world famous Johns Hopkins Hospital, we were able to easily attend Grand Rounds and special events and presentations by international leaders of the medical community.

6. We had access that most schools don't have. For example, the Secretary of the Veterans Administration came to give a small group presentation. Think about that. Not only that, he took questions and when students asked about getting jobs, he addressed each request, had his assistant personally follow up and ensured that he personally followed up job requests! Do you think something like that happens at just any school? That's just one example.

7. Our school job fairs had hospitals, top hospitals, recruiting RNs and NPs, from all over the country. Not just Baltimore, not just Maryland, but from all over the country. Again, that doesn't happen at just any school.

8. Service. Those of you who have owned a luxury car, you know you are treated very differently by the dealer than people who own a Chevy. When you bring in your car for maintenance, everything is all fancy and they treat you great. Even when you buy the car, you are treated much better than when buying a cheap car. If a Hopkins student has trouble, they aren't thrown out. They are given every chance and extra help to succeed. If they fail a class, they know they can repeat the class and graduate. If a student makes a complaint, it is taken very seriously. The school is very responsive to student suggestions. Hopkins puts a lot of effort into helping its students find jobs, with coaching, resume and portfolio preparation, classes on job search, etc. They offer a lot of enrichment activities like studying abroad. The alumni network is an invaluable resource.

9. And yes, I like the prestige of graduating from a top school. I worked my butt off my whole life in school and I am damn proud I've been to Yale, UCLA, and Hopkins. Is there anyone of you that would not be proud if your child had been to those schools?

For me and my peers, it was well worth it. I haven't heard any complaints from my classmates. I also haven't seen any alumni of top schools on this forum complaining about their education.

What is great about this country is we have choice. What is great about nursing is that it is flexible and there are many different education and career options. If you feel an ADN is your best choice, great, go for it. If you want to go to an Ivy League, and you can get in, well then more power to you.

What is sad is that some of you think so little of the nursing profession that you don't think a world class education is worth it.

https://nursing.jhu.edu/news-events/news/news?page=1

Horseshoe, BSN, RN · Oct 18, 2019

If memory serves, isn't U Penn the only Ivy league school that offers a nursing degree at the Bachelor's level? I looked at their program once, and it seemed far superior than many of the degree mills many people get their BSNs from.

The ultra elite schools may be the exception to the rule of "it doesn't matter where you get your degree." They carry a lot of prestige, and in certain geographical areas, it can make the difference between getting the interview and having your resume tossed into the trash.

JMO

HiddencatBSN, BSN · Oct 18, 2019

In general I wouldn’t recommend it unless financial aid (grants and scholarships, not loans) makes it comparable to a public school. I think there are some situations where it might make sense (many accelerated, second degree programs are at private schools and the cost-benefit of less time/less disruption to relocate plus shorter time you’re paying the premium can tip the scales) but graduating with no or minimal debt is huge.

I have yet to see big name credentials impact career progression in nursing and particularly if you plan to stay local after graduation, the “no name” school might actually have a locally recognized program. Not sure anyone outside the wider metro area knows about my school but when I was a new grad and applying for jobs, it was recognized and well-regarded.

HiddencatBSN, BSN · Oct 18, 2019

22 hours ago, FullGlass said:
The point is that this is a personal decision. How a person chooses to spend their money is their business and no one else's.
That is why some people buy a Mercedes and others buy a Chevy, why some people shop at Nordstroms and others at WalMart. Who are you to demand justification for people's choices?
Hopkins is very clear that they are not just training nurses, they are training nurse leaders. In other words, their goal is to train the nurses that are going to be CNO, CEOs, public policy leaders, legislators, researchers, and professors, and so forth.
As far as income, my point is that a good income makes an expensive education cost-effective. If you think you can achieve that with a less expensive school, more power to you. But you don't have a right to make that choice for someone else.
As I explained in painstaking detail, most of these expensive schools offer great financial aid and the likelihood of winning competitive scholarships. Notice you didn't touch that argument. So if someone could go to Hopkins on a full ride scholarship, do they need to justify that?
You obviously don't know California. Most of California is very affordable. The Bay Area is ridiculously expensive, and so are parts of LA. The rest of the state has many very affordable cities. California RNs and NPs make more than in any other state, even when considering the cost of living. There are also a lot of jobs available. And as I said, California RNs have a union and safe staffing laws. As I said, there are RNs in Sacramento making $200K a year and Sacramento is quite affordable.
I'm so tired of this type of attitude among some nurses. Do you ever hear MDs ask about the cheapest, easiest schools? Do you ever hear MDs ask if an Ivy League medical school is worth it? If nurses want to be respected professionals, then they should value their education and demand the best. Would any loving parent just want their kids to go to the cheapest school? All the parents I know move to the best neighborhood they can so their kids are in the best school district possible. And they make a lot of sacrifices so their kids can go to the best college possible. Do these parents need to justify themselves to you?
There is an elite in this country, people. The elites go to a certain set of schools. And in any profession, there is the top 10% in that profession. Some of us want to be in that top 10%. What's great about the US is that we all have the opportunity to do so if we decide to go for it.
Given that the top nursing schools have more applicants than spaces, I'd say there are plenty of other people who feel the same way. And selectivity is also a measure of a school's quality.

There’s a national student loan debt crisis right now. And while nursing employment outlook is very different than other fields, weighing the cost of education against the benefits is absolutely essential and I most certainly have seen doctors struggle with their loan debts. I do agree that it’s not a “no never” situation with regards to a more expensive school, but I also don’t think it’s unprofessional to consider the cost. It doesn’t mean a potential student is less committed to their career or education.

FullGlass, BSN, MSN, NP · Oct 18, 2019

13 minutes ago, HiddencatBSN said:
There’s a national student loan debt crisis right now. And while nursing employment outlook is very different than other fields, weighing the cost of education against the benefits is absolutely essential and I most certainly have seen doctors struggle with their loan debts. I do agree that it’s not a “no never” situation with regards to a more expensive school, but I also don’t think it’s unprofessional to consider the cost. It doesn’t mean a potential student is less committed to their career or education.

My Hopkins education was CHEAPER than a public university in my home state!

The reason I am taking the time to write about this is to help people who may be ruling out an education at a top school, just assuming it is too expensive. Please do not go by the "list" price. Apply and see what kind of financial aid package you get - you may be pleasantly surprised.