In late August, the U.S. Department of Education barred ITT (ESI) from enrolling new students who depend on federal aid and required the company to warn current students that its accreditation is in jeopardy. ITT also was told that it must increase its reserves from $94.4 million to $247.3 million, or 40% of federal student aid the company received in 2015.
The financial blow was too much for Carmel-based ITT to bear, so the decision was made to shutter operations, a move that will impact thousands of students and employees.
We had students from ITT tech about a year ago on my floor, and they literally had no clue. Like they hid in the classroom for most of the time and their instructor wasn't too far behind them. This doesn't surprise me.
I am going to speak on behalf of Breckinridge students. First and foremost, our program was not easy in any way to get into. The notion we were not competitive, is completely asinine and disrespectful. I got a 95 on my entrance Hesi and had a high gpa going into the program. I personally was accepted to other programs, but chose Breckinridge for their small class size and coworkers who vouched for the program. Not every student went there due to no other options like the assumption that is being tossed around. I feel for the students who were in their last quarter and now have to start from square one. As for the cost, I would walk out of that program with a loan around $24000. With grants and their own personal scholarship, it cut the program in half. Is it more than traditional programs, yes, but it wasn't that ridiculous when you think of the process most colleges want you to go through. Please think of every student affected by this closure, and who were blindsided that this was going to occur. I went for orientation on the 25th and there was no indication this was going to happen. Devastating is not even the word for this fiasco.
Specializes in OR, Nursing Professional Development.
This is incorrect - Fortis has national accreditation through ACCSC. In Indiana, their RN program has initial accreditation from the BON.
When we talk about accredited nursing programs, we are talking about accreditation through one of the two bodies that nationally accredit nursing programs and nothing but nursing programs: ACEN and CCNE.
As for the BON, the BON does not accredit programs; it approves them. Accreditation and approval are not the same and are not interchangeable.
I'm torn about this. I did a for profit AS degree (non nursing) in my 20s. Cost me 30,000. The subsequent job paid 12-15$/hr. Sound like all these LPN programs on daytime TV? Yep. Even the for profit RN programs, which pay a bit more, are highway robbery. 40,000$ for a hospital based non-degree 2 year (we still have a TON of them in my area) program? Seriously?? What are you thinking?
Well, I got suckered into it, too, many years ago. Because I didn't know better.
I paid off my loans, and it rankles me to hear that others who made the same stupid mistakes that I did may get their loans forgiven. Make mistakes, learn from them. Learn to do your research. I will be furious if my tax dollars go to paying for stupid mistakes that I had to pay for myself...
That said...kiddos fresh out of high school have no idea what accreditation really means. I sure didn't. I only have a clue about that because of what I've learned here.
Who am I to condemn some poor person (kiddo or adult) who really didn't know better than to commit to 15-30 years of loan payments for a bull**** degree that will NEVER get them a comparably paying job... just because I had to pay "Stupid Tax?"
I don't have an answer to this. I do thank everyone here who is giving tough love to those who ask questions about for profit schools. Here it is: DON'T DO IT. Wait a year. Get into a school that will prepare you well for NCLEX and real life, and do it without loans!
There are ways to get what you want without a lifetime of debt - take it from someone who did it the WRONG way first, then grew up and did it the RIGHT way: You CAN go to nursing school without paying for it for the next 20 years. I did it. You can, too. I promise. I graduated from nursing school (ASN and BSN) with NO debt. It can be done!
If you take nothing else from this thread, PLEASE go to DaveRamsey.com and at least explore how you can get an education without going into debt. It's not worth it.
I am going to speak on behalf of Breckinridge students. First and foremost, our program was not easy in any way to get into. The notion we were not competitive, is completely asinine and disrespectful. I got a 95 on my entrance Hesi and had a high gpa going into the program. I personally was accepted to other programs, but chose Breckinridge for their small class size and coworkers who vouched for the program. Not every student went there due to no other options like the assumption that is being tossed around. I feel for the students who were in their last quarter and now have to start from square one. As for the cost, I would walk out of that program with a loan around $24000. With grants and their own personal scholarship, it cut the program in half. Is it more than traditional programs, yes, but it wasn't that ridiculous when you think of the process most colleges want you to go through. Please think of every student affected by this closure, and who were blindsided that this was going to occur. I went for orientation on the 25th and there was no indication this was going to happen. Devastating is not even the word for this fiasco.
I am thinking of those students. I feel awful for all of them. It is very easy to get into, I'm sorry, it is. With that Hesi score, you would have been very competitive at any school, I'm sure. You are the exception to the rule of people we are talking about. My friend got a 40 on the Teas and was accepted into these schools.
Unfortunately, everybody received that "scholarship". It's one of their "selling points". Then, they add fees that you are not told about and either you pay them, or they hold your degree. That has been a huge complaint I've seen from many people on this forum. They will often wait until the end and say, oh by the way, you owe us $5k that your loans and grants didn't cover. Pay up now or we hold your degree.
I'm very sorry you turned down other programs for this. I'm sorry you will have to start the process again. I really am.
I can understand accusing ACICS of being lax, or of doing a poor job of evaluating its accredited schools, but can you support your accusation of "dishonest"? ACICS clients being "under federal investigation" for fraud is not sufficient. Which ACICS-accredited institutions were found guilty of fraud, and how did ACICS respond?
If a nurse is accused of abusing a patient, the BON launches an investigation. With no other information presented, do you assume the hospital that hired the nurse is "dishonest"?
It's the same criteria as "scam" - you are making serious accusations and you need to back up your claim.
The quote is directly from the full report that you linked.
How about Corinthian Colleges?
"In fact, according to an analysis from the Center for American Progress, from 2010 to 2015, the ACICS in 90 instances approved and named schools to its honor roll around the same time they were under investigation. The companies that owned those schools, which took in more than $5.7 billion in federal funds over the past three years, represent 52 percent of all federal aid dollars received by ACICS-approved colleges during that period." -US News and World Report
"In one instance, a Florida-based college chain, FastTrain College, hired strippers to convince young men to enroll, according to a 2014 complaint filed by the Department of Justice. The college president has since been convicted on charges of stealing more than $6.6 million in federal financial aid, enrolling ineligible students, fabricating high school diplomas and making false statements to the Department of Education." -US News and World Report
"Somehow, despite all of these issues, the Accrediting Council for Independent Colleges and Schools, or ACICS—a nonprofit entity tasked with evaluating if FastTrain was of sufficient quality to participate in the federal student aid programs—seemed to find no major problems with the college. In fact, not only did ACICS fail to raise any public alarm bells about FastTrain, it named the school an honor roll institution in 2011 for its excellent understanding†of the quality assurance process." -Center for American Progress
I am going to speak on behalf of Breckinridge students. First and foremost, our program was not easy in any way to get into. The notion we were not competitive, is completely asinine and disrespectful. I got a 95 on my entrance Hesi and had a high gpa going into the program. I personally was accepted to other programs, but chose Breckinridge for their small class size and coworkers who vouched for the program. Not every student went there due to no other options like the assumption that is being tossed around. I feel for the students who were in their last quarter and now have to start from square one. As for the cost, I would walk out of that program with a loan around $24000. With grants and their own personal scholarship, it cut the program in half. Is it more than traditional programs, yes, but it wasn't that ridiculous when you think of the process most colleges want you to go through. Please think of every student affected by this closure, and who were blindsided that this was going to occur. I went for orientation on the 25th and there was no indication this was going to happen. Devastating is not even the word for this fiasco.
I think you were likely the exception rather than the rule, do you agree?
More than 50% of students in these programs do not even graduate and 70% of student loan default has been linked to these programs.
I'm torn about this. I did a for profit AS degree (non nursing) in my 20s. Cost me 30,000. The subsequent job paid 12-15$/hr. Sound like all these LPN programs on daytime TV? Yep. Even the for profit RN programs, which pay a bit more, are highway robbery. 40,000$ for a hospital based non-degree 2 year (we still have a TON of them in my area) program? Seriously?? What are you thinking?
Well, I got suckered into it, too, many years ago. Because I didn't know better.
I paid off my loans, and it rankles me to hear that others who made the same stupid mistakes that I did may get their loans forgiven. Make mistakes, learn from them. Learn to do your research. I will be furious if my tax dollars go to paying for stupid mistakes that I had to pay for myself...
That said...kiddos fresh out of high school have no idea what accreditation really means. I sure didn't. I only have a clue about that because of what I've learned here.
Who am I to condemn some poor person (kiddo or adult) who really didn't know better than to commit to 15-30 years of loan payments for a bull**** degree that will NEVER get them a comparably paying job... just because I had to pay "Stupid Tax?"
I don't have an answer to this. I do thank everyone here who is giving tough love to those who ask questions about for profit schools. Here it is: DON'T DO IT. Wait a year. Get into a school that will prepare you well for NCLEX and real life, and do it without loans!
There are ways to get what you want without a lifetime of debt - take it from someone who did an AS way
too expensive the wrong way: You CAN go to nursing school without paying for it for the next 20 years. I did it. You can, too. I promise. I graduated from nursing school (ASN and BSN) with NO debt. It can be done!
If you take nothing else from this thread, PLEASE go to DaveRamsey.com and at least explore how you can get an education without going into debt. It's not worth it.
I did as well, years ago, as stated earlier. Mine was for business. I ended up $10-12k in debt. I paid it off over 10 years. I paid in full for my dumb mistake. It was then I learned how to look at schools.
Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. I fully believe that.
You are missing the point. To get a job, you need national accreditation. Most job postings say you need to have graduated from a nationally accredited school. To transfer credits you need regional accreditation.
The accreditation you are mentioning means nothing. It means nothing except that the government will give them your financial aid money. You can't get a job with it. Their credits are useless when they don't transfer. You can't get a BSN with it.
Do you understand why being accredited by career colleges means nothing now?
National accreditation is indeed recognized by the Feds/DOE, but it is, in general, not recognized by a regionally accredited school - which in essence makes the degree worthless as currently over eighty percent of them will not take credits from those schools, and the remainder pick and choose which ones they want to take.
A BON cannot accredit a school. They can ENDORSE one, but not accredit it.
A school has to be approved by a regional or national agency. Professional schools get further accreditation from their own professional regulating bodies, which certifies that those schools meet the minimum standards for entry level licensure in that profession.
If passing rates were that bad, a school can indeed be told by that state's board or bar that to be recommended for accreditation they need to improve their scores.
My own personal opinion is that national accreditation is completely worthless and these schools have predatory business practices that should get them shut down. I also think they engage in a lot of bait and switch - which in other worlds is 100% illegal.
National accreditation is indeed recognized by the Feds/DOE, but it is, in general, not recognized by a regionally accredited school - which in essence makes the degree worthless as currently over eighty percent of them will not take credits from those schools, and the remainder pick and choose which ones they want to take.
A BON cannot accredit a school. They can ENDORSE one, but not accredit it.
A school has to be approved by a regional or national agency. Professional schools get further accreditation from their own professional regulating bodies, which certifies that those schools meet the minimum standards for entry level licensure in that profession.
If passing rates were that bad, a school can indeed be told by that state's board or bar that to be recommended for accreditation they need to improve their scores.
My own personal opinion is that national accreditation is completely worthless and these schools have predatory business practices that should get them shut down. I also think they engage in a lot of bait and switch - which in other worlds is 100% illegal.
I'm simply talking about nursing school national accreditation. There are two different ones. One is ACEN and the other I think is CCNE. That is important in job hunting. It's important in the nursing world. I know what the BON endorsement is. I'm sorry if I misspoke earlier in my comments earlier.
Regional is what is needed for credit transfer. Each program at a school I'm sure has their own national accreditations. My whole point being accredited by the national league of career colleges means absolutely ziltch in the nursing world.
"Scam" is a loaded word. Here's the URL for the US DOE recommendation to withdraw recognition of ACICS - the word "scam" doesn't appear anywhere in it. ACICS has been recognized by the DOE since 1956; if it were a scam, the FTC would have a record of it (there are no results for it when I search their site) and the DOE would withdraw immediately instead of going through the 18-month process. Some of its accredited institutions may be less-than-stellar or approaching "scam" territory, but I think it's a stretch to make that accusation for the accrediting agency itself.
There are plenty of legitimate non-degree nursing programs - for example, here in Ohio the BON has given full approval to Firelands Regional Medical Center School of Nursing in Sandusky, a diploma program that has no recognized accreditation by the US DOE. Being a non-degree program has no bearing on legitimacy.
There are a lot of emotional responses to this thread - I'm trying to stay objective. I'm concerned that words like "unaccredited" and "scam" are being used when they aren't accurate or are unnecessary. Those are serious accusations that so far have only been supported by opinions, not facts.
Please understand that I agree these programs (Fortis, ITT, etc.) are terrible - I've stated it several times in this thread. They are poor quality: they accept less-than-qualified students, are driven by profit, and have low pass rates. Those are verifiable facts, and that alone should be sufficient reasons to encourage potential students to look elsewhere.
Some of those Fortis graduates won't pass the NCLEX because they shouldn't have been accepted to nursing school to begin with. Some will pass but will have trouble finding jobs because of the school's reputation (not because of their accreditation). Some will be turned down because the school doesn't have NLN approval. Many graduates took out enormous loans to pay for school, and they will have trouble paying them back even if they can find a nursing job. There are plenty of scenarios that can support our assertions that students should avoid those schools. I don't understand why there is a need to risk our credibility by accusing them of being unaccredited, which can easily be disproved, or calling the accrediting agency a "scam" when the government body responsible for them does not use that term. Those arguments aren't necessary to make our point.
LoganK: you've done a lot of homework in this area but you need to do much more to fully grasp the politics of all accrediting organizations.
So while you wouldn't call the accrediting organizations a scam since you haven't to your knowledge been scamed by one, have mercy on those who have in being led to believe that even ACEN and CCNE means much. (It doesn't)
For example, South University schools of nursing have CCNE accreditation, but one in West Palm Beach, Fl and one in Tampa, Fl have 17% AND 3% graduation rates respectivly and that is data collected over a 6 year tabulating period (collegescorecard.ed.gov).
So before anyone attempts to ascribe the good housekeeping seal of approval to the two hoity toity nursing accrediting organizations previously cited, and NCLEX pass rates for that matter, know that you have done your present and future nursing colleagues a disservice by not questioning indepth the hackneyed marketing ploys of accreditation and NCLEX pass rates that are at best incomplete and out of context data that the for-profits especially cite to lure in the naive and innocent purveyors of nursing schools.
So, yet again, without knowing the graduation and retention rates of any school all other information is out of context and practically meaningless.
With all schools look under the hood and compile as the lawyers say a preponderance of evidence before deciding on any school. This decision can be one of the most important decisions of anyone's lifetime.
In accreditations favor though, don't go to any school that the BON of any state says is Ok that isn't accredited. That's just plain really stupid to the max. But again, not the sine qua non of choosing a reputable school you would be proud to call your alma materm
Once upon a time when I was a manager I was asked by our CNO to not hire any new nurse that graduated from ITT. I'm not going to even address the accreditation or quality of education issues. There was one new grad that I found to be very intriguing who happened to attend ITT. This was a middle aged person who was beginning a second career. I immediately knew that I wanted to hire this person. I convinced my CNO with ample evidence that this RN would make a considerable contribution to my unit. And I was correct. This happened to be one of my better hires that contributed not only to the culture and influence of my unit but also provided the most excellent patient care.
I do not know why this person chose to attend ITT, honestly, I don't care. What I care about is: Do you have the heart and the personality to make my department the best in the hospital? Do you have the ability to learn, adapt, evolve, and provide the best care?
I will not share my opinion on these schools, good or bad. What I will share is how each individual should be considered based on their personality, history, and heart. I will say, and always believe, that our profession begins and ends with caring for our people.
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EaglesWings21, ASN, RN
380 Posts
We had students from ITT tech about a year ago on my floor, and they literally had no clue. Like they hid in the classroom for most of the time and their instructor wasn't too far behind them. This doesn't surprise me.