In late August, the U.S. Department of Education barred ITT (ESI) from enrolling new students who depend on federal aid and required the company to warn current students that its accreditation is in jeopardy. ITT also was told that it must increase its reserves from $94.4 million to $247.3 million, or 40% of federal student aid the company received in 2015.
The financial blow was too much for Carmel-based ITT to bear, so the decision was made to shutter operations, a move that will impact thousands of students and employees.
And your belief in your postings is why I don't believe the government should forgive these loans. Because of the refusal, no matter what, to understand what these people are getting into. They are just throwing money away.
Yes, the government may say it's ok to take your money. But the government is not your mommy. There is some personal rest that comes into play. You are not understanding why accreditation and which ones are important.
I went to one of those schools a long time ago for business. I paid an arm and a leg which took me 10 years to pay for and my credits were worthless. I had straight As. They meant nothing when I decided to go for nursing a year later. Life happened and 15 years later I returned to finish. My initial credits at the community college counted. These others didn't.
I learned my lesson. I paid for it. I figured out at that time what accreditation meant and which ones counted. So between my personal experience and my friend right now, I am passionate. But I also paid every penny back I owed for my bad decision.
There are plenty of nurses who get jobs with those degrees. I understand the transfer issue, and I agree with it, but the fact is that they are still accredited, and some nationally-accredited programs' credits do transfer. It is wrong to say those schools are unaccredited.
As I said earlier, there are plenty of valid reasons to warn students away from those schools. Lying about their accreditation is NOT one of them. I may be an LPN, but I also have a masters degree in higher education. You are misinformed.
No I'm not. You are. Your masters doesn't mean you understand the accreditation in nursing. Each program has their own accreditation policies. I'm talking about nursing.
I will say from what I've heard about engineering it's close to the same. ITT and similar schools are considered jokes in most professions. I happen to know a couple of engineers.
The two most important accreditations that employers looks at are schools that have ACEN and CCNE. If schools don't have at least one, two or both of these, it doesn't look so well for you. Listen, a for-profit school is exactly what it is. FOR-PROFIT! they're supposed to make money off of you. It sucks but thats the way they are. However, thats where your research starts. Yes, I wanted to go to community college. I tried. I stopped trying not because I wasn't competitive enough, but because I don't feel like waiting 2 years for an ADN when most hospitals are requiring a BSN anyway. It wasn't logical. I play advocate for both ends. If you want to go to the community college and get your degree. Save money where you can!!! However, if that's not the route you choose to take and you do want to go to a for-profit. Find out everything about them, whether good or bad. At least you will have the info you need to make a sound decision. I'm attending West Coast University and community college in the same semester so yes it can be done.
And as I explained in a previous post, you are wrong. You do not understand "proper" accreditation.
If they are not properly accredited, why is the BON even meeting with them, let alone approving them (whether under close scrutiny or not)? Your personal observations of the BON's being "unimpressed" don't mean anything. The BON has the power to refuse approval, but they didn't do it. You said they were told to get their pass rates up. You're not making any sense.
Also, Fortis has numerous locations in numerous states. Which meeting did you go to? I'm referring to the location in Indiana, where the poster was located. That program has legitimate accreditation and has initial approval from the BON.
I'm talking about Indiana as well. Were you at that meeting? I was. I watched and saw the inquiry. It was quite long and there were many stipulations put on that initial accreditation. And accreditation by the BON simply means their students are able to sit for NCLEX. That's it. It doesn't mean their graduated will get jobs.
I do understand about the accreditation. My point is, they ARE accredited. It is not accurate to say they are not. I can understand why your personal experience causes you to view them that way, and I'm truly sorry you went through that. However, they are legitimately accredited and recognized by the US Department of Education.
Transferring credits is an issue for nationally-accredited schools. I've posted about that before - it shouldn't be an issue, but regionally-accredited colleges can deny them.
Nurses graduating from those colleges have trouble getting jobs. It's not because of the accreditation - it's because they have reputations for being poor quality. Their graduates qualify to sit for the NCLEX, and a small number of them pass. There are too many nurses for too few positions, so those nurses have problems finding jobs - it's an issue of reputation.
Between the transfer issues and low employer acceptance of those degrees, it makes sense to warn students away from them. I agree with you 100%. My beef is with the claim that they are unaccredited. I understand I'm splitting hairs, but as I mentioned, I have a higher education background so I'm more sensitive to the word "unaccredited".
Now that I see where you're coming from, I do sympathize with you and I understand your passion. I hope you'll understand my point as well - these programs are poor quality and are purely profit-driven, and they have a lot of other valid issues. I'm just asking you to stop calling them unaccredited because it's not accurate.
It's partly just because I'm older & things were much different when I was growing up, but I've never liked/trusted for-profit 'universities' and similar stuff. (For you younger people, these things didn't exist at all or were very smaller in number until the last 20 years or so).
The ACICS is in the process of being shut down as a scam.
"Scam" is a loaded word. Here's the URL for the US DOE recommendation to withdraw recognition of ACICS - the word "scam" doesn't appear anywhere in it. ACICS has been recognized by the DOE since 1956; if it were a scam, the FTC would have a record of it (there are no results for it when I search their site) and the DOE would withdraw immediately instead of going through the 18-month process. Some of its accredited institutions may be less-than-stellar or approaching "scam" territory, but I think it's a stretch to make that accusation for the accrediting agency itself.
The ACCSC is essentially limited to non-degree program accreditation.
There are plenty of legitimate non-degree nursing programs - for example, here in Ohio the BON has given full approval to Firelands Regional Medical Center School of Nursing in Sandusky, a diploma program that has no recognized accreditation by the US DOE. Being a non-degree program has no bearing on legitimacy.
There are a lot of emotional responses to this thread - I'm trying to stay objective. I'm concerned that words like "unaccredited" and "scam" are being used when they aren't accurate or are unnecessary. Those are serious accusations that so far have only been supported by opinions, not facts.
Please understand that I agree these programs (Fortis, ITT, etc.) are terrible - I've stated it several times in this thread. They are poor quality: they accept less-than-qualified students, are driven by profit, and have low pass rates. Those are verifiable facts, and that alone should be sufficient reasons to encourage potential students to look elsewhere.
Some of those Fortis graduates won't pass the NCLEX because they shouldn't have been accepted to nursing school to begin with. Some will pass but will have trouble finding jobs because of the school's reputation (not because of their accreditation). Some will be turned down because the school doesn't have NLN approval. Many graduates took out enormous loans to pay for school, and they will have trouble paying them back even if they can find a nursing job. There are plenty of scenarios that can support our assertions that students should avoid those schools. I don't understand why there is a need to risk our credibility by accusing them of being unaccredited, which can easily be disproved, or calling the accrediting agency a "scam" when the government body responsible for them does not use that term. Those arguments aren't necessary to make our point.
"Scam" is a loaded word. Here's the URL for the US DOE recommendation to withdraw recognition of ACICS - the word "scam" doesn't appear anywhere in it.
"It is unclear to Department staff how the agency has held its institutions accountable for fraud and abuse.."
I don't know how you define "scam" but "a dishonest scheme" seems to fit the ACICS pretty well. More than half of it's revenue cam from schools that were under state or federal investigation for fraud.
More than half of it's revenue cam from schools that were under state or federal investigation for fraud.
What is your source for this claim?
I can understand accusing ACICS of being lax, or of doing a poor job of evaluating its accredited schools, but can you support your accusation of "dishonest"? ACICS clients being "under federal investigation" for fraud is not sufficient. Which ACICS-accredited institutions were found guilty of fraud, and how did ACICS respond?
If a nurse is accused of abusing a patient, the BON launches an investigation. With no other information presented, do you assume the hospital that hired the nurse is "dishonest"?
It's the same criteria as "scam" - you are making serious accusations and you need to back up your claim.
Specializes in Nurse Leader specializing in Labor & Delivery.
Exhibit A: Look at this thread.
When we're referring to accreditation, we're referring to NURSING PROGRAM accreditation, not "career college accreditation". The BON does not provide accreditation, so what they allow is irrelevant when talking about accreditation.
About 50% of hospitals, as well as the VA, and most universities, require that a nurse graduate from an ACCREDITED NURSING PROGRAM in order to work there, matriculate there, etc.
When we're referring to accreditation, we're referring to NURSING PROGRAM accreditation, not "career college accreditation". The BON does not provide accreditation, so what they allow is irrelevant when talking about accreditation.
About 50% of hospitals, as well as the VA, and most universities, require that a nurse graduate from an ACCREDITED NURSING PROGRAM in order to work there, matriculate there, etc.
I've looked at this thread and there's a lot more to it than nursing program accreditation.
By the same logic you provide, about 50% of hospitals, etc. DON'T require that the nurse graduate from an accredited nursing program. I'm not sure what point you're trying to make.
I've provided facts to back up my claims and my position, but most people seem to be content to make decisions based on what they think instead of actual information. I'm clearly wasting my time trying to use logic and rational argument.
NurseGirl525, ASN, RN
3,663 Posts
And your belief in your postings is why I don't believe the government should forgive these loans. Because of the refusal, no matter what, to understand what these people are getting into. They are just throwing money away.
Yes, the government may say it's ok to take your money. But the government is not your mommy. There is some personal rest that comes into play. You are not understanding why accreditation and which ones are important.
I went to one of those schools a long time ago for business. I paid an arm and a leg which took me 10 years to pay for and my credits were worthless. I had straight As. They meant nothing when I decided to go for nursing a year later. Life happened and 15 years later I returned to finish. My initial credits at the community college counted. These others didn't.
I learned my lesson. I paid for it. I figured out at that time what accreditation meant and which ones counted. So between my personal experience and my friend right now, I am passionate. But I also paid every penny back I owed for my bad decision.