It's not my job to pray with you.

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I am not religious. I do not pray. If praying makes you feel good then awesome. Do that. When patients are religious and need spirutual support, I am the first one to find their local pastor/rabbi/medicine man/etc. for them. This is how I can support my patient. I do not feel however, that I should be pressured to say prayers. yes, I will give my patient space and quiet time to pray if they want, but i don't feel it's my job to pray with patients. I feel this is over the line.

Nope nope nope. Just nope. Some people have been abused by religion emotionally and perhaps even physically, and they should not feel obligated to engage in religious activities, regardless of how it affects the patient outcome. Nurses value their patients, but a nurse is a person. And people shouldn't be made to go against their beliefs or be made to remember things they'd rather forget. The patient's well being is not more important than the nurse's well being.

Maybe they are teaching that the nurse is just as important as the patient these days, but it has not always been so.

If you needed the "morning after" pill, should a pharmacist be allowed to not fill the Rx for you due to his or her personal disagreement with people using it? Who's more important - the raped patient or the pharmacist?

There are no easy answers, I'm just thinking out loud.

I guess you could try to get a replacement staff member who is willing to be openly spiritual/religious with the patient and you can just tell the pt the truth, that you have been harmed by religion and cannot participate right then.

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Actually you are incorrect. Jews do not believe that Jesus is the Messiah. Muslims,although they do not believe that Jesus is the begotten son of God, believe that Jesus is the Messiah and will return again to lead all believers. He will arrive right before judgement day. He is referred to in both the Quran and the oral traditions of the Prophet Muhammad (sav) as al- Mesih or the messiah, the Anointed One, and the Son of Mary.Jesus is considered a holy prophet in Islam who was born of the virgin Mary and became man. The major difference is that he is considered man not the begotten son of God. The word Allah is interchangeable with the word God. Al (the) Ilah (god). Islam, like Judaism places a much stronger emphasis on strict monotheism. "The" or "Al" is like the capital "G" in God as opposed to god. Islam is also one of the Abrahamic faiths that has many more similarities than differences to the other Abrahamics faiths, Christianity and Judaism.

I understand that some churches are teaching that Muslims do no not worship the same God as Christians and Jews. That is simply untrue.

There are actually many Jews who believe Jesus is the Messiah, like Jews for Jesus and similar groups.

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Personally, I think it's inappropriate for either your employer or your school to expect you to pray with a patient or otherwise be in anyway involved or included in any patient's religious or spiritual practice if you are not 100% comfortable and okay with it.

Sure, some people get a great deal of comfort from prayer and for that reason patients should absolutely be given as much time, space, privacy, etc as is humanly possible to give them so they can do their religious/spiritual thing. Although I am not at all religious myself, I think it's very important to support the religious/spiritual aspect of patients' recovery and to do so generously and gladly, and I believe my patients when they tell me their stories about experiencing relief from symptoms or even cures for past ailments via the power of prayer. I know I don't know everything there is to know about everything, and I'm not about to discount anyone else's beliefs, not my place nor my job to do so. Thank goodness for that, sounds tedious as hell if you ask me.

That being said, I don't pray with patients. Ever. Nor do I tolerate attempts by anyone, be it an employer, (so far not at all an issue with my current employer, but I have had to be very assertive with a couple of past employers) a patient, a patient's family member or clergyman, or any of my co-workers who feel differently about the issue than I do. Of course, I handle any pressure to pray that comes from a patient or a patient's family with A LOT more sensitivity and tact than pressure coming from employers or co-workers, and I have to say that I have only felt really pressured to participate in prayer by one patient's family members in over 12 years of nursing but I have felt pressured to pray or otherwise participate in the religious observances of patients many, many times by employers and co-workers and have even wound up changing jobs twice due to the small-mindedness and pure meanness of zealously religious co-workers.

I am a nurse. I love my job, I care about my patients, and I give 110% and then some when I am at work. There are very few patient requests I will not find the time for. I have gone in early to pretend to be interested in soap operas I have never seen before and couldn't care less about with a lonely older gent, and I have stayed late to listen to a battered woman tell me things I'd really rather have not heard but which she very obviously needed to verbalize to someone who wouldn't either judge her or invalidate her experience, and I am HAPPY as a g*****n clam to be able to do these things. I am flattered when I am asked to do something a little over and above, as I don't believe I would be asked if I were not trusted, ergo I must be doing something right after all.

Yes, I am a nurse and I strive to be a damn good one. I am also a human being.

Being a nurse does not mean I check my humanity or my boundaries at the door when I get to work and then pick them up again 10 or 14 hours later when western medicine is done with me for the day. A person's essential humanity is not a coat or a mask that can or should be handed over or discarded, even temporarily, for a base wage plus a shift differential.

No other person has the right to force me to bow my head and hold hands because it will make them feel better or because they think I ought to or for any other reason, and anyone who thinks I am wrong about this can take their dissenting opinion and stick it as far up their tailpipe as they can get it. If they don't have a car, they can stick it somewhere else the sun will never find it, whatever, as long as they keep it to themselves.

I am a person, I am not a thing to be used, I am not a commodity, and what is between me and my god or me and no god is MINE and ONLY MINE, that part of me belongs to no one else and to assume that it is okay try to force me to participate in a prayer, a rain dance, an exorcism, an altar-call or any other religious ritual in which I do not wish to participate is NOT OKAY AT ALL. In fact, I believe it is against the law. In fact, I know it is against the law. Even if it were not, forcing someone to participate in religous/spiritual things that they do not wish to participate in is just a nasty, tyrannical, rotten thing to do to another human being.

Some of you no doubt think I am completely unreasonable and wrong (see the tailpipe reference above) and I strongly suspect that most of the people who feel this way are zealously religious Christians. "All you have to do is stand there and hold hands and be quiet, what's wrong with that? If you won't do that you're mean and unreasonable." Arrighty then, so next time you have a patient who is a Wiccan and they want you to get your Christian butt in their room and hold hands with their Wiccan coven members while they do a chant to the black cat moon fairy goddess or whatever, you're gonna be all too happy to forsake your Christ for the maybe 5 minutes it'll take to pray with your patient and his/her coven, right?

Right?

RIGHT?

Yeah, I thought about as much.

No, you should absolitely NOT EVER be pressured to pray with a patient and anyone who says otherwise is very, very wrong. If your school or employer is the one pressuring you, they probably would be wise to read up on religious discrimination in the work place because it's a lot easier to prove in court than most people realize.

Nurses are people too, and like any other people we will only be treated with as much respect as we show ourselves.

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Just to clarify they do not. Christians and Jews believe in the same God. Christians believe the messiah has come once and will return a second time. Jews believe the messiah has yet to come. Muslims believe in no messiah and that allah has never begotten a son. Given that the messiah is a pivotal part of jewish and Christian faith it is hard to say that they are the same as islam. As we give spiritually competent care it is important to know some differences in faiths.

Just to clarify....you are mistaken. Hppygr8ful said "Muslims, Jewish and Christians all believe in the same God they just worship in different ways." THIS is correct.

The G'd of Islam is the same G'd of Judaism is the same G'd of Christianity.

Christians believe that Jesus was the son of G'd, appeared on the earth as the Messiah, and will return. Ok. Jews believe that G'd WILL send a Messiah, but it will not be a "divine" actual "son", and that He has never "begat" a son. Muslims have the Prophet Muhammad, which is neither. Jesus would be viewed as a prophet, not a divine being.

The differences aren't in which G'd is recognized, it's which Messiah is (or is not) recognized.

Messianic positions are different, but the Almighty IS the very same: the G'd of Abraham, who fathered both Isaac (and began a line of Judaism) and Ishmael (and began the line for Islam).

G'd is viewed differently, interpreted differently, depending on who is doing the reading...AND the writing. Heck, there's a pretty big division on what the G'd of the Old Testament and the G'd of the New Testament "is like"...Vengeful? Merciful?...and no one considers them to NOT be the same G'd. Different perspectives.....same Being.

Worth clarifying.

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There are actually many Jews who believe Jesus is the Messiah, like Jews for Jesus and similar groups.

FWIW.....those who follow the Torah and consider themselves Jews in the traditional sense do not consider "Jews for Jesus" to actually BE Jews. Judaism has seen a number of false messiahs come and go. I'm sure the "J4J" crowd consider themselves to be Jews....but that's not a forgone conclusion for all Jews. They are a crazy-small minority, so...."many" is misleading.

There are those who call themselves Muslims who follow a bastardized version that supports their own hateful ideology. Are they true Muslims (followers of Islam)? I don't believe so. Not saying the "J4J" group is in the least bit hateful, I'm saying that not all Jews would consider them to be Jews. Most would not.

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Parakeet....I'm not going to quote your posts, I find them too disturbing.

In summary, you believe that the only way Muslims can know peace is by converting to Christianity, and a belief in Jesus. I wonder if you believe this is true for Jews, as well: we cannot know true peace unless we "Come to Jesus"?

Wow.

You cite ISIS and the murder done in the name of Allah as some kind of proof-positive that Islam is evil. Ok....I suppose, therefore, that the murders done in the name of Jesus is proof-positive that Christianity is evil. What murders? Well....Inquisitions and Crusades and modern-day murders of physicians come to mind.

Most would agree that Christianity's teachings are NOT responsible for the evil-doers throughout time, who have used Christ as a justification for their hate. Yet you believe that the teachings if Islam, as an entirety, SHOULD be condemned. THAT sounds like hate, IMHO.

Why you don't hold evil-doers up for individual judgment rather than denigrate an ENTIRE religion is bizarre to me.

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Parakeet....I'm not going to quote your posts, I find them too disturbing.

In summary, you believe that the only way Muslims can know peace is by converting to Christianity, and a belief in Jesus. I wonder if you believe this is true for Jews, as well: we cannot know true peace unless we "Come to Jesus"?

Wow.

You cite ISIS and the murder done in the name of Allah as some kind of proof-positive that Islam is evil. Ok....I suppose, therefore, that the murders done in the name of Jesus is proof-positive that Christianity is evil. What murders? Well....Inquisitions and Crusades and modern-day murders of physicians come to mind.

Most would agree that Christianity's teachings are NOT responsible for the evil-doers throughout time, who have used Christ as a justification for their hate. Yet you believe that the teachings if Islam, as an entirety, SHOULD be condemned. THAT sounds like hate, IMHO.

Why you don't hold evil-doers up for individual judgment rather than denigrate an ENTIRE religion is bizarre to me.

I wholeheartedly agree, these are the same people that call mass shootings by white supremacists racists "isolated incidents" done by disturbed individuals while at the same time calling the same type of shooting by others "terrorism". The stupidity is just stunning.

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Specializes in Critical Care.
MunoRN,

Like I posted earlier, if you go back in history, Islam is only as old as A.D. 610. Islam and Judaism only share certain things in that Mohamed picked and chose what he liked from Judaism and wove it into his religion. Judaism goes back 4000 years.

If you read the Old Testament, the LORD God of the Bible is not the same as Allah in Islam. It is a shame that in the West, people are deceived to think that Islam can coexist with other religions. It is not possible. If you listen to former Muslims turned Christian, or even sometimes in the news, Muslims under the excuse of jihad, kill thousands of Christians, call them infidels, try to 'convert' them. They themselves do not consider Christianity equal; that would be treason against their religion.

Why is that necessary if Christianity is on par with Islam and the LORD Jehovah of the Bible equal to Allah? Should they not live in peace then, since everything is the same? The reason is, Islam and Christianity are as alike as darkness and light. There is no crossover.

For anyone reading this post.....as Islam was the subject brought up in an earlier post, that is why it is being mentioned here. I am not disregarding other religions apart from Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, it is just that these three were being discussed.

Thanks for reading. :)

I can't tell if you're just willfully ignorant of the historical context of Islam or if you're so arrogantly religiocentric that it's actually overridden basic facts and rationale in your mind.

Yes, Islam came about hundreds of years after Christianity, just as Christianity came hundreds of years after Judaism, yet that doesn't somehow mean that Christianity doesn't base much if itself in the Old Testament derived from Judaism any less than Islam bases it's beliefs in both the Old and New Testaments.

Islam interprets the Old and New Testaments differently, just as Christianity interprets the Old Testament differently than Judaism. Even within Christianity, different denominations and sects interpret both books differently, that's a major part of what differentiates them, but they still are generally based in the Old and New Testaments.

There certainly are some muslims who interpret their religious beliefs to mean they should commit acts that the majority see as incompatible with their beliefs such as murdering "infidels" (a term borrowed from Christianity), Christianity certainly can't claim such things have never happened within it's religion. Just as with Christianity, it's not the majority of muslims that hold those views. Muslims and can and do live peacefully among people of other religions including Christians. There is a large Muslim community where I live and you'd be surprised to know they have yet to kill me, or anyone for that matter.

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Just to clarify....you are mistaken. Hppygr8ful said "Muslims, Jewish and Christians all believe in the same God they just worship in different ways." THIS is correct.

The G'd of Islam is the same G'd of Judaism is the same G'd of Christianity.

Christians believe that Jesus was the son of G'd, appeared on the earth as the Messiah, and will return. Ok. Jews believe that G'd WILL send a Messiah, but it will not be a "divine" actual "son", and that He has never "begat" a son. Muslims have the Prophet Muhammad, which is neither. Jesus would be viewed as a prophet, not a divine being.

The differences aren't in which G'd is recognized, it's which Messiah is (or is not) recognized.

Messianic positions are different, but the Almighty IS the very same: the G'd of Abraham, who fathered both Isaac (and began a line of Judaism) and Ishmael (and began the line for Islam).

G'd is viewed differently, interpreted differently, depending on who is doing the reading...AND the writing. Heck, there's a pretty big division on what the G'd of the Old Testament and the G'd of the New Testament "is like"...Vengeful? Merciful?...and no one considers them to NOT be the same G'd. Different perspectives.....same Being.

Worth clarifying.

Out of curiosity, why is the name of GOD redacted in your post ? I have only seen that used on words that are considered profane or offensive.

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Just to clarify....you are mistaken. Hppygr8ful said "Muslims, Jewish and Christians all believe in the same God they just worship in different ways." THIS is correct.

The G'd of Islam is the same G'd of Judaism is the same G'd of Christianity.

Christians believe that Jesus was the son of G'd, appeared on the earth as the Messiah, and will return. Ok. Jews believe that G'd WILL send a Messiah, but it will not be a "divine" actual "son", and that He has never "begat" a son. Muslims have the Prophet Muhammad, which is neither. Jesus would be viewed as a prophet, not a divine being.

The differences aren't in which G'd is recognized, it's which Messiah is (or is not) recognized.

Messianic positions are different, but the Almighty IS the very same: the G'd of Abraham, who fathered both Isaac (and began a line of Judaism) and Ishmael (and began the line for Islam).

G'd is viewed differently, interpreted differently, depending on who is doing the reading...AND the writing. Heck, there's a pretty big division on what the G'd of the Old Testament and the G'd of the New Testament "is like"...Vengeful? Merciful?...and no one considers them to NOT be the same G'd. Different perspectives.....same Being.

Worth clarifying.

I don't need clarification and no it is not correct. The very definition of the God in the bible that I serve does not meet with Islam's definition of God. The bible is very clear on who God is/is not and it tells you how to spot a phony and how to respond. I do not doubt that they believe that they worship the one true God but many people believe that in error. They serve a god masquerading as the father and are wholly convinced. As far as the history lessons I am speaking of spiritual matters not the reasoning of man in his own wisdom. This thread has derailed quite a bit so I will be bowing out. I understand that I will not change your mind and you certainly won't change mine. All the best.

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My God is better than your god argument. I think we've gone as far as we can on this thread.

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Specializes in CCU, SICU, CVSICU, Precepting & Teaching.
My God is better than your god argument. I think we've gone as far as we can on this thread.

And it's STILL not my job to pray with you.

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