It's not my job to pray with you.

Parakeet · Jul 14, 2015

Actually you are incorrect. Jews do not believe that Jesus is the Messiah. Muslims,although they do not believe that Jesus is the begotten son of God, believe that Jesus is the Messiah and will return again to lead all believers. He will arrive right before judgement day. He is referred to in both the Quran and the oral traditions of the Prophet Muhammad (sav) as al- Mesih or the messiah, the Anointed One, and the Son of Mary.Jesus is considered a holy prophet in Islam who was born of the virgin Mary and became man. The major difference is that he is considered man not the begotten son of God. The word Allah is interchangeable with the word God. Al (the) Ilah (god). Islam, like Judaism places a much stronger emphasis on strict monotheism. "The" or "Al" is like the capital "G" in God as opposed to god. Islam is also one of the Abrahamic faiths that has many more similarities than differences to the other Abrahamics faiths, Christianity and Judaism.
I understand that some churches are teaching that Muslims do no not worship the same God as Christians and Jews. That is simply untrue.

Though it may be slightly off topic, I could not leave this alone. The Jewish and Christian God is the same; Islam has a very different god than the God of the Bible. Also, they are not all Abrahamic faiths, because Abraham believed in the LORD Jehovah, not Allah. Judaism is about 4,000 years old, starting with Abraham. The beginning of the Christian church was end of B.C., beginning of A.D., but the Bible records people who had faith in God even before the New Testament Church.

Islam as a religion started around A.D. 610, so no, it was not an Abrahamic religion. Did Mohamed borrow and distort from Hebrew and Christian religion, yes, so that is why you see things like Muslims keeping halal; no pork originated with Judaism! Ask any Muslim if they serve a god who can love; it is not possible. They can never be sure if they have done enough to get into paradise.

The Jewish religion shares with Christianity the Old Testament; but it ends there, in a way. Most Jewish people today do not believe in Jesus as the Messiah, they are still waiting.

Christianity does have roots in Judaism, but we have a faith that is sure, that we know that of ourselves, we cannot please God, but through Jesus Christ we can be saved if we believe in Him.

My intentions for this response, is that I felt that the info on this post and a couple others are not quite historically correct. Back to subject......

Parakeet · Jul 14, 2015

My own thoughts on this subject are like what has been effectively voiced by others in this thread. I am not going to push my beliefs on anyone and patient concerns come first. Even though I would never participate in a chant or prayer to another god other than my God, I know how to respect other people's beliefs.

One situation I had in a nursing home, was a resident who heard me singing while I worked, and asked me to sing more for her. That turned into me singing, praying, talking with her. It was all by her own request.

It does not help patient relations to blatantly state ones own opinion and disregard theirs. Like another poster said her.....tact, respect, and kindness.

Purple_roses · Jul 15, 2015

I grew up Southern Baptist, and even though I'm mostly agnostic now (my relationship with religion is complicated), I still love the old hymns.
I sang plenty for demented LOLs in the South because it helped keep them calm. I only remember the big ones, like Amazing Grace, these days, it's been so long. Although I do remember some of the blood of the lamb ones, 'cause they creep me out and give me nightmares.

We have the same bio! Raised baptist, became agnostic. And now I'm agnostic--maybe?? If people could hear my thoughts they would probably think I had a mental disorder. It's like an almost never ending debate about what's really going on. My mind never shuts up.

Just today I pulled my laptop out and played hymns for a client who kept having panic attacks. I don't like the hymns, but if it helps someone relax, I'll blare that stuff and put it on repeat.

And yes, the bloody hymns and the hellfire ones are burned into my brain. And Beulah Land for some reason.

BsumerRN · Jul 15, 2015

Though it may be slightly off topic, I could not leave this alone. The Jewish and Christian God is the same; Islam has a very different god than the God of the Bible. Also, they are not all Abrahamic faiths, because Abraham believed in the LORD Jehovah, not Allah. Judaism is about 4,000 years old, starting with Abraham. The beginning of the Christian church was end of B.C., beginning of A.D., but the Bible records people who had faith in God even before the New Testament Church.
Islam as a religion started around A.D. 610, so no, it was not an Abrahamic religion. Did Mohamed borrow and distort from Hebrew and Christian religion, yes, so that is why you see things like Muslims keeping halal; no pork originated with Judaism! Ask any Muslim if they serve a god who can love; it is not possible. They can never be sure if they have done enough to get into paradise.
The Jewish religion shares with Christianity the Old Testament; but it ends there, in a way. Most Jewish people today do not believe in Jesus as the Messiah, they are still waiting.
Christianity does have roots in Judaism, but we have a faith that is sure, that we know that of ourselves, we cannot please God, but through Jesus Christ we can be saved if we believe in Him.
My intentions for this response, is that I felt that the info on this post and a couple others are not quite historically correct. Back to subject......

Actually, religious scholars recognize that Islam is an Abrahamic religion. The shared roots of all three are undeniable, so much so that you can either not accept any of them or recognize a common thread of truth in each of them.Just because the paths of each faith are not identical does not mean there is only one path to God. Furthermore, Who are Christians to decide whether or not Muslims fall within the fold of the children of Abraham? Stop listening to your preachers and learn what Islam teaches. Maybe you could gain some insight. Also how can you decide what attributes of God are only available to Christians. It's ridiculous and quite frankly an ignorant argument full of fallacies. All of the attributes associated with God in Judaism and Christianity are also attributed to the same God in Islam... The most-forgiving, the most-loving, the most-beloved, the most-compassionate, the-most merciful, the most-just. I wonder what the motivation is for particular religious leaders to create commentary on Muslim theology without knowing their butt from a hole in the ground?

Ps. The not eating pork issue is a tradition of the Abrahamic faiths. Nowhere in the bible did Jesus eat pork. Christians abolished the law of Moses as they saw fit. Islam continued with the law of Moses. It's not exactly the same as just ripping off someone else's scripture.

Peace

MunoRN, RN · Jul 15, 2015

Though it may be slightly off topic, I could not leave this alone. The Jewish and Christian God is the same; Islam has a very different god than the God of the Bible. Also, they are not all Abrahamic faiths, because Abraham believed in the LORD Jehovah, not Allah. Judaism is about 4,000 years old, starting with Abraham. The beginning of the Christian church was end of B.C., beginning of A.D., but the Bible records people who had faith in God even before the New Testament Church.
Islam as a religion started around A.D. 610, so no, it was not an Abrahamic religion. Did Mohamed borrow and distort from Hebrew and Christian religion, yes, so that is why you see things like Muslims keeping halal; no pork originated with Judaism! Ask any Muslim if they serve a god who can love; it is not possible. They can never be sure if they have done enough to get into paradise.
The Jewish religion shares with Christianity the Old Testament; but it ends there, in a way. Most Jewish people today do not believe in Jesus as the Messiah, they are still waiting.
Christianity does have roots in Judaism, but we have a faith that is sure, that we know that of ourselves, we cannot please God, but through Jesus Christ we can be saved if we believe in Him.
My intentions for this response, is that I felt that the info on this post and a couple others are not quite historically correct. Back to subject......

Like Christianity, Islam worships the God first defined in the Old Testament, Islam just uses a different name for the same God. Islam also traces it's roots back to Abraham and his descendents, which is why it is correctly considered to be an Abrahamic religion.

Both Religions share the same basic scriptures and teachings; Jesus for instance is the second most revered prophet in Islam, and Jesus's disciples are also the primary prophets of Islam.

Ruby Vee, BSN · Jul 15, 2015

There is no policy that says I have to stop that conversation or say "No, I can't pray with you. But I can page the on-call chaplain who may or may not be a Christian (as were the ones who have asked me to pray). He/she can be here in half an hour. In the mean time, can I do something else to help with your distress? Some Ativan, some bad coffee?"

As far as I know, no one on the thread has been advocating or touting a policy that says you cannot pray with someone if they ask you to and you wish to do so. What the issue seems to be is "Do I HAVE to? What if it violates my personal beliefs or I feel uncomfortable doing so.?"

Ruby Vee, BSN · Jul 15, 2015

OK, OK. OP, you're right. Not your job. The benefit to the patient's well-being is supported scientifically. One tidbit: "An interesting bit of science attached to this ethnocentric and geocentric evolution of prayer comes out of Duke University Medical Center, where a study found that, within a group of 150 cardiac patients who received alternative post-operative therapy treatment, the sub-group who also received intercessory prayer (they were prayed for) had the highest success rate within the entire cohort."
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/enlightened-living/201007/the-science-psychology-and-metaphysics-prayer
"The Science, Psychology, and Metaphysics of Prayer." Religion, Spirituality, and Health: The Research and Clinical Implications
Many more studies support this. But if you believe your ethical principles trump a possible improvement of patient well-being, you must have some very good reasons that I have no way of comprehending. I like science, and I am an atheist, but I want to do what is in my power to (possibly) improve outcomes. In the end--nope, not your job. Carry on.
Shh... I don't pray either. I Kind of just support in silence. (Bonus: When a family member faints from emotional exhaustion, I'm there to help.)
I wonder if they'll fire me.

This is just nasty. No one should have to participate in prayer if it makes them uncomfortable or violates their own belief system. Call the chaplain or the nurse down the hall who can't WAIT to pray with someone. You've improved patient well being.

Our job is to assess the patient's needs and then hook them up with someone to help meet those needs. Our job is not to martyr ourselves on the cross of being all things to all people.

Here.I.Stand, BSN, RN · Jul 16, 2015

As far as I know, no one on the thread has been advocating or touting a policy that says you cannot pray with someone if they ask you to and you wish to do so. What the issue seems to be is "Do I HAVE to? What if it violates my personal beliefs or I feel uncomfortable doing so.?"

Oh I know; I was responding to the poster who seemed to be surprised that a nurse is allowed to pray w/ the pt, vs deferring to the chaplain. I don't recall exactly how the question was worded, but was wondering about being required to keep religion out of the job, even if nurse and pt were both agreeable.

And I agreed that we shouldn't be expected to as part of our job description.

Purple_roses · Jul 16, 2015

OK, OK. OP, you're right. Not your job. The benefit to the patient's well-being is supported scientifically. One tidbit: "An interesting bit of science attached to this ethnocentric and geocentric evolution of prayer comes out of Duke University Medical Center, where a study found that, within a group of 150 cardiac patients who received alternative post-operative therapy treatment, the sub-group who also received intercessory prayer (they were prayed for) had the highest success rate within the entire cohort."
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/enlightened-living/201007/the-science-psychology-and-metaphysics-prayer
"The Science, Psychology, and Metaphysics of Prayer." Religion, Spirituality, and Health: The Research and Clinical Implications
Many more studies support this. But if you believe your ethical principles trump a possible improvement of patient well-being, you must have some very good reasons that I have no way of comprehending. I like science, and I am an atheist, but I want to do what is in my power to (possibly) improve outcomes. In the end--nope, not your job. Carry on.
Shh... I don't pray either. I Kind of just support in silence. (Bonus: When a family member faints from emotional exhaustion, I'm there to help.)
I wonder if they'll fire me.

Nope nope nope. Just nope. Some people have been abused by religion emotionally and perhaps even physically, and they should not feel obligated to engage in religious activities, regardless of how it affects the patient outcome. Nurses value their patients, but a nurse is a person. And people shouldn't be made to go against their beliefs or be made to remember things they'd rather forget. The patient's well being is not more important than the nurse's well being.

Here.I.Stand, BSN, RN · Jul 16, 2015

Jesus is considered a holy prophet in Islam who was born of the virgin Mary and became man. The major difference is that he is considered man not the begotten son of God

This has always confused me a bit; Jesus himself claimed to be God, eternally existing. "Before Abraham was born, I AM." and the pharisees picked up stones to stone him. They didn't want to stone him over incorrectly conjugating the verb "to be." They understood I AM to be what God is called, as told to Moses in Exodus. The would-be stoning was for his alleged blasphemy.

He also said he is the way, the truth, and the life, and no one can come to the Father but through Him.

So...if what Jesus said wasn't true, wouldn't that make him a false prophet?

It's an honest question. How can a false prophet -- be he deceptive or deluaional -- be a true and holy prophet? And wouldn't the alternative be that he was telling the truth?

amzyRN · Jul 16, 2015

I'm not a religious person and would refer the patient to the chaplain as a first gesture. If the person were having a very tough time, I would offer to be silent with them, or say that I would stay here while they prayed. I might even say yes that I will pray, even if I did not. It depends on the situation. I would not want to be rejecting and do not take offense from people expressing religious gestures. As long as no one is trying to convert me, I am very accepting of all types of religious expression. I also would not want to give a false impression of my own beliefs while at the same time upholding my patients beliefs and religious or spiritual expression. It's a challenging situation, I agree.

No Stars In My Eyes · Jul 16, 2015

I would never have expected this thread to kick up such a kerfuffle; guess I am kind of naive, even at my age.

My theory about everything is that as many people as there are in the world, that's as many ways they are of doing things. I roll with the flow. Like one PP mentioned, as long as they aren't trying to convert me (and that HAS happened a few times!) I'm ok with however they want to deal with the prayer thing.

If someone is offended or adamant about not praying with a patient for whatever reason, all they have to do is say, "I have a _____procedure that is due to be done for another patient; how 'bout I call your pastor or the chaplain (or the Hospice nurse, or a family member?") If it was appropriate I might say that medically they are doing really great, so maybe their prayers are already on their way toward being answered. If not, well, empathy and efficiency are not at opposite ends of the pole; I'd get something going in the pipeline for them, squeeze their hand, promise to follow-up, and then be on my way.