It's not my job to pray with you.

Here.I.Stand, BSN, RN · Jul 16, 2015

As far as I know, no one on the thread has been advocating or touting a policy that says you cannot pray with someone if they ask you to and you wish to do so. What the issue seems to be is "Do I HAVE to? What if it violates my personal beliefs or I feel uncomfortable doing so.?"

Oh I know; I was responding to the poster who seemed to be surprised that a nurse is allowed to pray w/ the pt, vs deferring to the chaplain. I don't recall exactly how the question was worded, but was wondering about being required to keep religion out of the job, even if nurse and pt were both agreeable.

And I agreed that we shouldn't be expected to as part of our job description.

Purple_roses · Jul 16, 2015

OK, OK. OP, you're right. Not your job. The benefit to the patient's well-being is supported scientifically. One tidbit: "An interesting bit of science attached to this ethnocentric and geocentric evolution of prayer comes out of Duke University Medical Center, where a study found that, within a group of 150 cardiac patients who received alternative post-operative therapy treatment, the sub-group who also received intercessory prayer (they were prayed for) had the highest success rate within the entire cohort."
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/enlightened-living/201007/the-science-psychology-and-metaphysics-prayer
"The Science, Psychology, and Metaphysics of Prayer." Religion, Spirituality, and Health: The Research and Clinical Implications
Many more studies support this. But if you believe your ethical principles trump a possible improvement of patient well-being, you must have some very good reasons that I have no way of comprehending. I like science, and I am an atheist, but I want to do what is in my power to (possibly) improve outcomes. In the end--nope, not your job. Carry on.
Shh... I don't pray either. I Kind of just support in silence. (Bonus: When a family member faints from emotional exhaustion, I'm there to help.)
I wonder if they'll fire me.

Nope nope nope. Just nope. Some people have been abused by religion emotionally and perhaps even physically, and they should not feel obligated to engage in religious activities, regardless of how it affects the patient outcome. Nurses value their patients, but a nurse is a person. And people shouldn't be made to go against their beliefs or be made to remember things they'd rather forget. The patient's well being is not more important than the nurse's well being.

Here.I.Stand, BSN, RN · Jul 16, 2015

Jesus is considered a holy prophet in Islam who was born of the virgin Mary and became man. The major difference is that he is considered man not the begotten son of God

This has always confused me a bit; Jesus himself claimed to be God, eternally existing. "Before Abraham was born, I AM." and the pharisees picked up stones to stone him. They didn't want to stone him over incorrectly conjugating the verb "to be." They understood I AM to be what God is called, as told to Moses in Exodus. The would-be stoning was for his alleged blasphemy.

He also said he is the way, the truth, and the life, and no one can come to the Father but through Him.

So...if what Jesus said wasn't true, wouldn't that make him a false prophet?

It's an honest question. How can a false prophet -- be he deceptive or deluaional -- be a true and holy prophet? And wouldn't the alternative be that he was telling the truth?

amzyRN · Jul 16, 2015

I'm not a religious person and would refer the patient to the chaplain as a first gesture. If the person were having a very tough time, I would offer to be silent with them, or say that I would stay here while they prayed. I might even say yes that I will pray, even if I did not. It depends on the situation. I would not want to be rejecting and do not take offense from people expressing religious gestures. As long as no one is trying to convert me, I am very accepting of all types of religious expression. I also would not want to give a false impression of my own beliefs while at the same time upholding my patients beliefs and religious or spiritual expression. It's a challenging situation, I agree.

No Stars In My Eyes · Jul 16, 2015

I would never have expected this thread to kick up such a kerfuffle; guess I am kind of naive, even at my age.

My theory about everything is that as many people as there are in the world, that's as many ways they are of doing things. I roll with the flow. Like one PP mentioned, as long as they aren't trying to convert me (and that HAS happened a few times!) I'm ok with however they want to deal with the prayer thing.

If someone is offended or adamant about not praying with a patient for whatever reason, all they have to do is say, "I have a _____procedure that is due to be done for another patient; how 'bout I call your pastor or the chaplain (or the Hospice nurse, or a family member?") If it was appropriate I might say that medically they are doing really great, so maybe their prayers are already on their way toward being answered. If not, well, empathy and efficiency are not at opposite ends of the pole; I'd get something going in the pipeline for them, squeeze their hand, promise to follow-up, and then be on my way.

la_chica_suerte85, BSN, RN · Jul 19, 2015

No, but my school boasts on being holistic focused.

Holistic nursing, FYI, is not solely about praying or providing spiritual support. It entails SO much more than that. Prayer or religious support can be a small or even non-existant part of holistic care you provide to individual patients based on those individual patients' unique needs.

la_chica_suerte85, BSN, RN · Jul 19, 2015

SO true, at least in my program. One of my nursing theory texts was endorsed by Deepak, and it discussed how the nurse's energy intermingles with the patient's energy, they create a Caring Field. My instructor also brought her diving rods to class, to show how she used them to find where in her yard had the most favorable Qi for her labyrinth she was building. It was awkward.
Everyday things by dAnswering these questions in accordance with some faiths (such as my own) can appear to a well-meaning holistic nurse that the patient has spiritual deficits.

HAH! OMG, I would have loved that!

It also falls in line with the "disturbed energy field" NANDA. That's a big nope. :woot:

la_chica_suerte85, BSN, RN · Jul 19, 2015

I would never have expected this thread to kick up such a kerfuffle; guess I am kind of naive, even at my age.
My theory about everything is that as many people as there are in the world, that's as many ways they are of doing things. I roll with the flow. Like one PP mentioned, as long as they aren't trying to convert me (and that HAS happened a few times!) I'm ok with however they want to deal with the prayer thing.

I think a lot of it right now is that certain Christians feel, at least in the US, that they are experiencing their rights being compromised d/t gay marriage finding the affirmation of SCOTUS. Some are bristling and a lot of hate is getting directed toward the non-religious, ally, and/or LGBT folk. This is causing a reaction in kind against all religious people as they get painted with the same broad brush that concludes they are all bigots.

It's ugly out here, right now. Some people are acting like it's the dang '70s again -- even people born 20-30 years later.

la_chica_suerte85, BSN, RN · Jul 19, 2015

Nope nope nope. Just nope. Some people have been abused by religion emotionally and perhaps even physically, and they should not feel obligated to engage in religious activities, regardless of how it affects the patient outcome. Nurses value their patients, but a nurse is a person. And people shouldn't be made to go against their beliefs or be made to remember things they'd rather forget. The patient's well being is not more important than the nurse's well being.

Okay, I don't think anyone under normal circumstances should feel that it's too far out there to just be quiet, hold their hand and hold down for them. I was not raised in a religious household but attended a private Christian school that had teachings in line with some of the wack-a-doodle, homeschoolin' quiverfull folks. I'm also gay. I continue to struggle with some internal thoughts of self-hate because of what amounted to brainwashing from a young age (my parents meant well, they had no idea what my brother and I were being subjected, too -- they just thought we were getting a good education which didn't quite pan out too well). This was made more complicated by going to a Pentecostal church by a girl I was crushing on and getting baptized physically and "with the Holy Spirit" as they say.

However, if I've managed to develop a rapport with a patient who may just go with all the things that I've had to kind of run screaming from in the other direction, fine. I'll work it out. They want me to pray? Fine, I can do that, too. Let's get down with some Jesus & the Holy Spirit and such. I can do it because I'm accustomed to HOW to do those things (but, I won't advertise this willingness to patients, though). I might not feel it personally but I'll give my patient my best to make them feel better. I'm not wasting time getting on the horn to the chaplain unless it's about that time the patient needs them.

But, if someone was a victim of abuse at the hands of religious authority, then, no. I can see the mere mention of it could cause extreme psychological discomfort for someone with that background.

Ruby Vee, BSN · Jul 19, 2015

I think a lot of it right now is that certain Christians feel, at least in the US, that they are experiencing their rights being compromised d/t gay marriage finding the affirmation of SCOTUS. Some are bristling and a lot of hate is getting directed toward the non-religious, ally, and/or LGBT folk. This is causing a reaction in kind against all religious people as they get painted with the same broad brush that concludes they are all bigots.
It's ugly out here, right now. Some people are acting like it's the dang '70s again -- even people born 20-30 years later.

How are the rights of Christians being trampled upon by allowing everyone to marry the person of their dreams? If you don't believe in same sex marriage, don't marry a person of the same sex. It's not as if the danged liberals were rounding up helpless evangelical Christians and forcing them to marry a person of their own gender!

imenid37 · Jul 19, 2015

Big deal. Play along and make the patient and their family/friends happy. I promise it won't hurt you or suddenly make you want to change your entire life for an imaginary friend. All you're doing is providing comfort.

Exactly truthteller.

Here's another earth shattering idea..."Let me get ______ . She/he is very good at a time like this." This could be a co-worker, another nurse, tech, housekeeping, nursing sup,physician etc. You cannot always get the chaplain. Usually, there is a coworker you can collar in a pinch who is religious. I have worked with a lot of people who are ministers of something in their church (lay or even ordained) or just very devout. I will say it again. It is about making it happen for the patient.

It is true that there is dietary to prepare food and maintenance staff to fix the toilet, etc. However, in the inpatient world (which is where I have spent the past 30+ years as nurse and tech) nurses do pinch hit when these departments are not available. I seem to remember providing a snack or two on nights. It may have meant walking to another floor or paging the supervisor. If a toilet overflowed, I had to move the patient so they were somewhere where they had a working toilet and even put towels, etc on the floor to clean up when there were no housekeeping staff at night. The bottom line is you try to get your patient's needs met when they need it. Spirituality is something we assess and need to address. I am not the very pious religious type. There are pastors, etc that have visited my patients who totally creeped me out. However, would I stand silently with a patient who is a "bible thumper" if there baby was dying while they pray? Of course, with no hesitation. I don't know much about Islam, but would certainly offer a respectful moment of silence for a patient who is.

Rightfully, we have stopped punishing or passing judgement on people who have a same sex partner. Maybe we need to stop passing judgement on people who have faith we do not like or understand. You do not have to convert, You should show empathy and compassion. This is my opinion. I am sure others don't share it. I think you should think about it. One of the best things I have found about healthcare, is that it has put me with people I would not meet socially. This has broadened my horizons and taught me a lot (both good and bad) over the years.

la_chica_suerte85, BSN, RN · Jul 19, 2015

How are the rights of Christians being trampled upon by allowing everyone to marry the person of their dreams? If you don't believe in same sex marriage, don't marry a person of the same sex. It's not as if the danged liberals were rounding up helpless evangelical Christians and forcing them to marry a person of their own gender!

Exactly. I could never fathom why that is -- however, the backlash once it was announced, even from people in my own cohort who are 10 years younger than me, is saddening in 2015. However, there is a reason I'm not super-out and waiving the pride flag to everyone in my class (among a few other reasons).