It's not my job to pray with you.

kickatthedark · Jul 14, 2015

Point is..in nursing you are expected to go above and beyond to bring comfort and care to poeple. There are limits to this i feel, and I wish that it was discussed more. This "oh I do ANYTHING for my poor patients" Perfect nursey land attitude is unrealistic and quite frankly, dangerous in many ways. Yes, we are caregivers, but we are also human beings with limits.

Fractal-5 · Jul 14, 2015

I agree that one shouldn't have to compromise their own values or do something that makes them truly uncomfortable. I enjoy nursing but do not ascribe to the "calling" sentiment where I am only a selfless caregiver with no limits to my willingness to make patients happy.

I live in a place where Christianity is the status quo. People assume that I'm a believer because I am an ethical person capable of kindness...I understand that it doesn't make that mindset right, and sometimes I am irritated or offended by it. I try not to take it personally and to remain rational and objective.

I try to look at the fact that people assume incorrectly as an opportunity to model atheism to people that just don't understand it by showing them that I am ethical and kind as well. I'm just a regular person. I want to change misconceptions as much as I can so that if my kids grow up to be atheists it will be different for them.

You have to work within your comfort level, and should not be forced outside of that unwillingly. Everyone is going to have a different range of things they will tolerate. Do what works for you:)

Here.I.Stand, BSN, RN · Jul 14, 2015

There are a lot of aspects of holistic nursing other than praying with patients, and general perception of "holistic" tends to be more hippy New-Agey than Christian, or focused on other aspects entirely (such as CAM).

SO true, at least in my program. One of my nursing theory texts was endorsed by Deepak, and it discussed how the nurse's energy intermingles with the patient's energy, they create a Caring Field. :eek: My instructor also brought her diving rods to class, to show how she used them to find where in her yard had the most favorable Qi for her labyrinth she was building. It was awkward.

I had no idea before starting that class how it was, and by that point I'd already put a fair amount of work into their prereqs.

I got through the class by learning the book stuff as it was believed by the authors (easy with APA--"According to [Deepak et al.] (2009)...") I never wrote anything in the sense that I believed it was true, just as what the authors said.

When opinions were sought, I made ones that the prof probably didn't agree with, but I made my points. One example was what do we think of the spiritual assessments in the assessment chapter. One was a Likert scale with statements such as "the Earth is sacred," and "I see holiness in everyday things." I made the point that this kind of assessment can be divisive. As a Christian, God's creation can be appreciated and we should care for it, but it is not to be venerated. That is for God alone. Everyday things by definition are not holy. Answering these questions in accordance with some faiths (such as my own) can appear to a well-meaning holistic nurse that the patient has spiritual deficits.

Derail over.

Here.I.Stand, BSN, RN · Jul 14, 2015

Wow this is all news to me--I didn't know nurses could discuss religion with patients (somewhat) openly. Sorry if this is a foolish question but since we're on this topic--let's say a patient and nurse happen to be the same religion. If the patient asks the nurse to pray with/over them and the nurse is comfortable, is this actually ok to do this instead of getting the chaplain?

Yes, it is. The key is that the nurse doesn't push it. I've had my faith come up in conversation--I'll say I love the hymns they are playing in the room, and they've asked "Oh, are you Christian?" Or I've had patients who have attended a church that my family used to attend. And they've asked me to pray with them or for them; since they asked, I can engage. There is no policy that says I have to stop that conversation or say "No, I can't pray with you. But I can page the on-call chaplain who may or may not be a Christian (as were the ones who have asked me to pray). He/she can be here in half an hour. In the mean time, can I do something else to help with your distress? Some Ativan, some bad coffee?"

I've also told the family I will pray for them on my drive home as is my norm--if I have gathered from conversations that prayer is important to them.

Again, the key is to keep it patient led and patient (and family) focused.

canigraduate · Jul 14, 2015

Yes, it is. The key is that the nurse doesn't push it. I've had my faith come up in conversation--I'll say I love the hymns they are playing in the room, and they've asked "Oh, are you Christian?" Or I've had patients who have attended a church that my family used to attend. And they've asked me to pray with them or for them; since they asked, I can engage. There is no policy that says I have to stop that conversation or say "No, I can't pray with you. But I can page the on-call chaplain who may or may not be a Christian (as were the ones who have asked me to pray). He/she can be here in half an hour. In the mean time, can I do something else to help with your distress? Some Ativan, some bad coffee?"
I've also told the family I will pray for them on my drive home as is my norm--if I have gathered from conversations that prayer is important to them.
Again, the key is to keep it patient led and patient (and family) focused.

I grew up Southern Baptist, and even though I'm mostly agnostic now (my relationship with religion is complicated), I still love the old hymns.

I sang plenty for demented LOLs in the South because it helped keep them calm. I only remember the big ones, like Amazing Grace, these days, it's been so long. Although I do remember some of the blood of the lamb ones, 'cause they creep me out and give me nightmares.

Here.I.Stand, BSN, RN · Jul 14, 2015

To the OP--

When patients are religious and need spirutual support, I am the first one to find their local pastor/rabbi/medicine man/etc. for them. This is how I can support my patient. I do not feel however, that I should be pressured to say prayers.

I agree completely, actually, and it holds true for the religious as well. A Muslim or Jehovah's Witness RN shouldn't be pressured to pray to Jesus. I as a Reformed Christian don't participate in Hail Marys or tribal religious rites. You as an agnostic should not be pressured to do similar.

Yes it is our job to get pts' needs met. However, we are not going to meet every single need. If we note that a pt is coughing after taking a drink, we advocate for a SLP eval. We are not qualified to make the treatment plan. Same for PT, OT, dietary needs. We involve the right people, but they treat the pt. Likewise, if we are "unqualified" to deliver spiritual care, we should involve the professionals in our spiritual care deparents or from the pt's own congregation or denomination.

It sounds like that's exactly what you do--you assess a spiritual need, and you involve the relevant people.

rnsheri · Jul 14, 2015

OK, OK. OP, you're right. Not your job. The benefit to the patient's well-being is supported scientifically. One tidbit: "An interesting bit of science attached to this ethnocentric and geocentric evolution of prayer comes out of Duke University Medical Center, where a study found that, within a group of 150 cardiac patients who received alternative post-operative therapy treatment, the sub-group who also received intercessory prayer (they were prayed for) had the highest success rate within the entire cohort."

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/enlightened-living/201007/the-science-psychology-and-metaphysics-prayer

"The Science, Psychology, and Metaphysics of Prayer." Religion, Spirituality, and Health: The Research and Clinical Implications

Many more studies support this. But if you believe your ethical principles trump a possible improvement of patient well-being, you must have some very good reasons that I have no way of comprehending. I like science, and I am an atheist, but I want to do what is in my power to (possibly) improve outcomes. In the end--nope, not your job. Carry on.

Shh... I don't pray either. I Kind of just support in silence. (Bonus: When a family member faints from emotional exhaustion, I'm there to help.)

I wonder if they'll fire me.

Here.I.Stand, BSN, RN · Jul 14, 2015

Most of those passages refer to mixing religions--believers with nonbelievers, which generally led to the believers being influenced by idolatry-- nothing to do with ethnicity.

The Matthew passage has nothing to do with marriage at all. Sheep is a metaphor for believers, goats is one for not.

As for Aaron and Miriam who spoke against Moses for marrying Tzipporah? First of all, that is not doctrine, it's historical record. Second, have you read the following sentences to see how God dealt with Miriam and Aaron? Let me know if you take away from Numbers that God in the Bible forbids interracial marriage.

Daniel 2:43 - And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.
Numbers 12:1 - And Miriam and Aaron spake against Moses because of the Ethiopian woman whom he had married: for he had married an Ethiopian woman.
Acts 16:1 - Then came he to Derbe and Lystra: and, behold, a certain disciple was there, named Timotheus, the son of a certain woman, which was a Jewess, and believed; but his father [was] a Greek:
Judges 14:1-20 - And Samson went down to Timnath, and saw a woman in Timnath of the daughters of the Philistines.
Matthew 25:32 - And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth [his] sheep from the goats
Nehemiah 13:23-30 - In those days also saw I Jews [that] had married wives of Ashdod, of Ammon, [and] of Moab:

OCNRN63, RN · Jul 14, 2015

To the OP--
I agree completely, actually, and it holds true for the religious as well. A Muslim or Jehovah's Witness RN shouldn't be pressured to pray to Jesus. I as a Reformed Christian don't participate in Hail Marys or tribal religious rites. You as an agnostic should not be pressured to do similar.

I want to make sure people understand that Jehovah's Witnesses believe Jesus Christ is their savior, and that all prayers offered to God (Jehovah) are through his son's name, Jesus Christ.

Some people mistakenly think that we don't believe in Jesus's existence. We do.

OCNRN63, RN · Jul 14, 2015

OK, OK. OP, you're right. Not your job. The benefit to the patient's well-being is supported scientifically. One tidbit: "An interesting bit of science attached to this ethnocentric and geocentric evolution of prayer comes out of Duke University Medical Center, where a study found that, within a group of 150 cardiac patients who received alternative post-operative therapy treatment, the sub-group who also received intercessory prayer (they were prayed for) had the highest success rate within the entire cohort."
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/enlightened-living/201007/the-science-psychology-and-metaphysics-prayer
"The Science, Psychology, and Metaphysics of Prayer." Religion, Spirituality, and Health: The Research and Clinical Implications
Many more studies support this. But if you believe your ethical principles trump a possible improvement of patient well-being, you must have some very good reasons that I have no way of comprehending. I like science, and I am an atheist, but I want to do what is in my power to (possibly) improve outcomes. In the end--nope, not your job. Carry on.
Shh... I don't pray either. I Kind of just support in silence. (Bonus: When a family member faints from emotional exhaustion, I'm there to help.)
I wonder if they'll fire me.

The study didn't say that the prayer had to come from the patient's nurse, and the OP made it clear she would get the chaplain if the patient wanted to pray.

Here.I.Stand, BSN, RN · Jul 14, 2015

I see. I know our understanding of who Jesus is is different, and the doctrine of the Trinity is one of the big differences between your faith and mine; I didn't know prayers are offered in His name in yours. Thanks for the correction! :)

Here.I.Stand, BSN, RN · Jul 14, 2015

Oh, and a quick addition to my post above with the Bible references: ^^^ In the NT, "Greek" is often used interchangeably with "Gentile." This again is a religious differentiation, not an ethnic one. For example, Jesus came "for the Jew first, and also to the Greek." "Here there is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus," etc.

Timothy, a young disciple of the apostle Paul, was the son of a Jewish mother and Greek pagan father. His mother and grandmother were Jewish born believers in Jesus and taught him the Scriptures (which at the time before the NT was written, meant the Jewish scriptures collectively called the Old Testament by today's Christian). This contrasts with the marriages in Nehemiah etc. where the culture began to shift toward the pagan religions.

Just wanted to clarify that the meaning of the word is different than Greek as in geographically between Italian and Turkish. :)