Israel Hamas War

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toomuchbaloney said:

While some express concern about Biden, the GOP presidential frontrunner manages to earn the criticism of Israel and other Republicans for his "unhinged" comments on the violence. 

Fortunately, the current US president is viewed by our allies as stable, reliable and honorable as the world fights against right wing extremist terror groups and governments.  

I think it's Trump being Trump and wouldn't necessarily call them "unhinged" but not surprising.  He's praised extremists and dictators before.  He also is a bully that kicks people when they are down.  You might remember I said just this when Puerto Rico got destroyed,  That he would take swipes at the Prime Minister and Defense Minister of Israel after being attacked is how he is.  He sees things like this as a weakness.  

Much will be analyzed at how Hamas pulled this off against one of the most fortified borders in the world but there is no need to be childish and call the Defense Minister a jerk.

 

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Tweety said:

I think it's Trump being Trump and wouldn't necessarily call them "unhinged" but not surprising.  He's praised extremists and dictators before.  He also is a bully that kicks people when they are down.  You might remember I said just this when Puerto Rico got destroyed,  That he would take swipes at the Prime Minister and Defense Minister of Israel after being attacked is how he is.  He sees things like this as a weakness.  

Much will be analyzed at how Hamas pulled this off against one of the most fortified borders in the world but there is no need to be childish and call the Defense Minister a jerk.

 

Trump being Trump is exactly why Trump shouldn't be anywhere near the American presidency or any diplomatic negotiations ever again.  Trump sees this and most conflicts or events as opportunity to elevate Trump, not as an opportunity to support another democracy. Trump doesn't care much about democracies.  

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Mind-boggling and frightening.

"It's hard to wrap your mind around: The social justice warriors on college campuses around America have come out in support of terrorists who last weekend raped and murdered and beheaded innocent people (including children, women and the elderly) in Israel. "

https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/columnist/2023/10/12/hamas-attack-harvard-students-blame-israel/71152750007/

 

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Beerman said:

Mind-boggling and frightening.

"It's hard to wrap your mind around: The social justice warriors on college campuses around America have come out in support of terrorists who last weekend raped and murdered and beheaded innocent people (including children, women and the elderly) in Israel. "

https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/columnist/2023/10/12/hamas-attack-harvard-students-blame-israel/71152750007/

 

That's one opinion on the wider discussion about the conflict between Isreal and Palestine.  I do appreciate that the opinion acknowledged an important point;

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The students haven't apologized per se, however. They simply seem taken aback that their outrageous views aren't being welcomed with open arms.

They are allowed to express their thoughts even though the thinking isn't widely welcomed with open arms.  It's sort of like how people are allowed to express their belief that the 2020 election was stolen or that the Trump indictments are all a witch hunt.  Only sort of similar though, because there's actually evidence that the Palestinians have been subjected to some difficult circumstances at the hands of Isreal while there's no evidence of the stolen election or indication of a witch hunt. 

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toomuchbaloney said:

That's one opinion on the wider discussion about the conflict between Isreal and Palestine.  I do appreciate that the opinion acknowledged an important point;

They are allowed to express their thoughts even though the thinking isn't widely welcomed with open arms.  It's sort of like how people are allowed to express their belief that the 2020 election was stolen or that the Trump indictments are all a witch hunt.  Only sort of similar though, because there's actually evidence that the Palestinians have been subjected to some difficult circumstances at the hands of Isreal while there's no evidence of the stolen election or indication of a witch hunt. 

You frequently go back to Trump.

I can't speak for Beerman but he in no way indicated they weren't allowed to have their opinion or to protest.  But we are also allowed to express how we feel about it. I too am sometimes appalled at what people protest.

I'm torn both ways.  Israel in their policies have been pretty brutal with the Gaza Strip and Hamas is a terrorist group that murdered innocent civilians.  It's no surprise they clapped back, but this was brutal and now they have to eliminate Hamas and in turn kill what might be thousands more. 

https://blogs.timesofisrael.com/a-letter-to-my-non-jewish-friends-2/?fbclid=IwAR32xDCSxg_A2LUdajI8zTtKAvbaacZD2ny_zHML2x71icxil8dUvq4XfWY

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Tweety said:

You frequently go back to Trump.

I can't speak for Beerman but he in no way indicated they weren't allowed to have their opinion.  But we are also allowed to express how we feel about it.

I'm torn both ways.  Israel in their policies have been pretty brutal with the Gaza Strip and Hamas is a terrorist group that murdered innocent civilians.  It's no surprise they clapped back, but this was brutal and now they have to eliminate Hamas and in turn kill what might be thousands more. 

https://blogs.timesofisrael.com/a-letter-to-my-non-jewish-friends-2/?fbclid=IwAR32xDCSxg_A2LUdajI8zTtKAvbaacZD2ny_zHML2x71icxil8dUvq4XfWY

Yes, I do mention Trump often because he is running for the presidency again and he represents a threat to our democracy.   I think it's important to keep pointing out exactly how dangerous and unqualified Trump is for the presidency until we are past the next election.  And past the GOP attraction to liars, authoritarians, and chaos.

I didn't suggest that Beerman said anything about allowing an opinion.  I responded to his cited opinion piece with my own commentary, opinion and quote. As you mention, that's the whole point of this thread, to discuss the items or issues brought to the table so I'm perplexed that you mention it.  Are you reading something into my remarks that I didn't intend?

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Tweety said:

You frequently go back to Trump.

I can't speak for Beerman but he in no way indicated they weren't allowed to have their opinion or to protest.  But we are also allowed to express how we feel about it. I too am sometimes appalled at what people protest.

I'm torn both ways.  Israel in their policies have been pretty brutal with the Gaza Strip and Hamas is a terrorist group that murdered innocent civilians.  It's no surprise they clapped back, but this was brutal and now they have to eliminate Hamas and in turn kill what might be thousands more. 

https://blogs.timesofisrael.com/a-letter-to-my-non-jewish-friends-2/?fbclid=IwAR32xDCSxg_A2LUdajI8zTtKAvbaacZD2ny_zHML2x71icxil8dUvq4XfWY

Whatever one feels about Israel's policies, now isn't the time for these college students to speak up in the manner in which they are.  Among other thing,  imagine how emboldened the terrorists must feel when they see this nonsense on US college campuses.

I chose not to reply earlier.  We all know how each other feels about Trump.  Doubt any of us are going to change each other's minds on that.  It's hard to believe one wants to have a serious discussion when they insist on putting Trump into every discussion. 

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Beerman said:

Whatever one feels about Israel's policies, now isn't the time for these college students to speak up in the manner in which they are.  Among other thing,  imagine how emboldened the terrorists must feel when they see this nonsense on US college campuses.

I chose not to reply earlier.  We all know how each other feels about Trump.  Doubt any of us are going to change each other's minds on that.  It's hard to believe one wants to have a serious discussion when they insist on putting Trump into every discussion. 

Sure, we can be critical of the timing of the protests.  People are taking about the region and the history and the current violence, some think that's a reason to talk about all of it.  

I doubt that small groups of students on American college campuses emboldens terrorist groups too much. I could be persuaded with some evidence, I suppose. 

My view is that our current state of political chaos may be motivating terrorists (domestic or foreign) and global enemies more than pro-Palestine students. It's helpful to groups like Hamas that Congress is in political disarray. Republican politics have essentially frozen one branch of our federal government and disadvantaged our troops with unprecedented political interference in promotions and leadership positions.  It's been somewhat of a political strategy for the Senate Republicans to find ideological political excuses to hold up Biden diplomatic confirmations. Secretary of State Blinken said this Summer that practice was undermining national security.  

https://www.latimes.com/politics/story/2023-07-17/handful-of-senators-blocking-key-diplomatic-and-military-positions-for-partisan-issues-administration-says

Hamas appears to have had information about how Israel and their allies were monitoring and collecting intelligence about Hamas activities. That attack took some time to plan and train for, so Hamas has potentially felt emboldened for months and months, right? 

Trump made dumb public remarks about the matter and he, unfortunately influences the thinking of millions of Americans.  His political wishes and wants wishes even seem to have a way of getting translated into republican rhetoric and/or congressional focus, so it's unwise to  ignore what he says and posts.  It's also reasonable to worry that Trump could have contributed to an intelligence breach. He is, after all, under indictment for mishandling very sensitive documents and information. 

 

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Beerman said:

Whatever one feels about Israel's policies, now isn't the time for these college students to speak up in the manner in which they are.  Among other thing,  imagine how emboldened the terrorists must feel when they see this nonsense on US college campuses.

 

I sincerely doubt that Hamas is monitoring US college students in order to plan the attacks. 

When would be the correct time to speak up? 

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nursej22 said:

I sincerely doubt that Hamas is monitoring US college students in order to plan the attacks. 

When would be the correct time to speak up? 

 

Fair question and there probably isn't any easy answer.  The attack just happened and I suppose if you support the attack, now is a good time. 

For me it's not the emboldened terroritst that are monitoring the protests, but I'm sure they will be made aware, it's the one's that have been attacked, that lost their children and loved ones that are seeing of people of  their staunch and most supportive ally in the world celebrate them being attacked.

I remember just 9/11 seeing the Arabs dancing in the street celebrating and how it made me feel.

But if you read the article I posted, also kicking someone when they are down and hurting isn't always good timing either.  

It's a mess for sure.

At the end of the day Biden and pretty much with all politicians there still is universal support for Israel and we're still their most important ally in the world, and they are just some students making noise and don't represent most of us.

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The NPR-PBS News Hour-Marist poll found that nearly two in three Americans — or roughly 65 percent — say the government should publicly support Israel. About 23 percent said the U.S. should say or do nothing related to the conflict, and 8 percent say the U.S. should publicly criticize Israel.

https://thehill.com/policy/international/4255413-most-americans-us-government-support-israel/#:~:text=Most Americans believe the U.S.,government should publicly support Israel.

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I think we all agree that the Hamas attack was an act of terrorism. And many of us disagree with Israel's poor treatment of the Palestinians. One does not justify the other. 
Im glad we live in a country that guarantees the right to speech, even if it is offensive. And when it gets out of hand, there are laws against disorderly conduct.
Saying this is not the time to protest reminds me of lawmakers who always say it's too soon to talk about measures to prevent the slaughter of schoolchildren. 
Thoughts & prayers ought to do the trick.

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nursej22 said:

I think we all agree that the Hamas attack was an act of terrorism. And many of us disagree with Israel's poor treatment of the Palestinians. One does not justify the other. 
Im glad we live in a country that guarantees the right to speech, even if it is offensive. And when it gets out of hand, there are laws against disorderly conduct.
Saying this is not the time to protest reminds me of lawmakers who always say it's too soon to talk about measures to prevent the slaughter of schoolchildren. 
Thoughts & prayers ought to do the trick.

No one has said they don't have a right to speak.  

Your analogy isn't quite the same.  A better one on a smaller scale, would be a preacher preaching to his congregation a few days after 9/11 that "America's chickens have come home to roost".  

It's victim blaming.  These college students, some at our most prestigious universities, future seem to be supporting Hamas and their actions.  

 

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