Is it true that a BSN will be mandatory soon?

[szccdw]

An instructor of mine (I'm in another state) stated that she recently went to a national educators conference and that they were saying that within the next several years in NY it would be mandatory to have your BSN. Does anyone know anything about this? Thanks

[jjjoy, LPN]

This line of discussion came up because one person said that they thought it was a good thing for LPNs to be phased out of the hospital. In that case, there is still plenty of work opportunities for LPNs in LTC, home care, and other areas.

I can see where the *professional* differences between LPNs and RNs get blurred when LPNs are used extensively in hospitals. Hospitals, looking to keep costs down, try to pass off as many nursing responsibilities on the LPNs as possible, to the point where LPNs feel that they are essentially getting paid less to do the "same thing as the RNs except for hanging blood or pushing IV meds" (or whatever policy differences there are in scope of practice where you work). Meanwhile, hospitals might justify the relatively low pay for LPNs because they have quantitatively less formal professional training. I think that may have been the concern of the person who thought it was a good idea to phase LPNs out of the hospital.

[Absolutely13]

as long as that difficult nclex comes with more $$$, otherwise why even bother?

it's really ridiculous that our profession is the only one that doesn't require a bachelors degree for entry.

i agree on the money issue. more education should mean more salary. the nclex is the equalizing issue here, that's why i meantioned it.

i posted a similar comment and it appears to be lost. if it pops up, sorry for the double post.

i agree with pagan about not leaving out lpn's. i think the greatest learning happens after one becomes a nurse. we all have a valuable place on the team.

[HealthyRN]

Respectfully Lindarn, an ASN is not a two year degree. However, I do agree with you in principle. The reality is we don't have the academic infrastructure to graduate all nurses at a BSN minimum. I think the end result would be MORE health care positions that require a lower level of education with a larger scope of practice and more stress and liability for RN's.

I do see the big picture you are painting though. It professionally makes sense. Maybe, for the short term, a significantly more difficult NCLEX for BSN's would demarcate both degrees.

Just my thoughts.

I'm sorry, but I disagree. The ADN/ASN is a two-year degree, regardless of the amount of time that it takes one to complete. It takes some people five or six years to complete a BSN, due to waiting lists or not realizing what career path they wanted to take when first starting college. That does not change that fact that the BSN is a four-year degree.

I do understand what you are trying to say about the infrastructure in our educational system. However, other countries have successfully accomplished this despite similar nursing shortages and issues. I don't advocate completely eliminating ADN programs, but instead making a requirement that within so many years of practice the ADN nurse must continue their education to the BSN level. This is not a foreign concept. In most states, teachers are required to continue their education to the master's level within a few years of beginning their teaching career.

[PMFB-RN, RN]

I agree on the money issue. More education should mean more salary.

*** But it won't mean more money. If the goal is more money then unionizing would likely result in more money. Having RNs with BSNs wouldn't mean any more money into the hospital. BSNs still can't bill insurance for their services.

[pagandeva2000, LPN]

i agree on the money issue. more education should mean more salary. the nclex is the equalizing issue here, that's why i meantioned it.

i posted a similar comment and it appears to be lost. if it pops up, sorry for the double post.

i agree with pagan about not leaving out lpn's. i think the greatest learning happens after one becomes a nurse. we all have a valuable place on the team.

thank you for your supportive comment. i really do understand much how rns feel about the profession of nursing. i comprehend their stance on obtaining the bsn. however, (and of course, i am speaking as a dedicated lpn), i do advocate for lpns for several reasons. with all of the additional responsibilities that are placed on the rn, there is no way, even under the best of circumstances and their best intent, can they be everywhere at once. from what i understand, it is true that the lpn works under the auspice of the rn. however, we also have a license of our own. therefore, if we do not follow safety measures, we are responsible for the negative outcome, and face the possibility of discipline by the bon. and, as long as the rn doesn't let it slide, so to speak, and documents, disciplines and corrects the action, she should (and i say should, because i don't know-as i am not one) be covered or not be penalized in the same way. i see the registered nurse as the leader, the delegator, facilitator and resource for patient care. but, she/he cannot do all of this alone, and shouldn't.

what i have seen is that many nurses (may they be registered or practical) are not always capable or knowledgable in their practice. i have been in situations where i have seen them make off the wall judgement, and then, get angry when they are questioned. when i am questioning an rn, i am not making a judgement on their knowledge but for educating myself for the next time a situation occurs. we cannot just follow their orders because "i said so"...we deserve an explaination of why because we also have a license and the bon will say that we should have known better, should have gone higher or should not have done the act if we just listen blindly. this is why i say that it takes both, education as well as experience to make nursing work and to be respected.

what disturbs me when i hear these conversations is while i can applaud the bsn nurses for advocating for their position, it does not change the fact that we are currently fragmented (lpn, diploma, adn, bsn) and i don't see a change coming in the future, really. i may not be an rn, nor be interested in becoming one, however, i went into this because i want to be a team player and be the right hand of a capable nurse. i try to learn from them to know what they are observing, so that i can report it as soon as possible, continue to read because i believe in empowering the patient to the best of my ability and i want to help, rather than stay to the side and let the rns get overly stressed out. and, i know many lpns that feel the same...therefore, i certainly say that i believe we have a place in this as well.

not all of us are welfare recipients that are trying to get a salary above minimum wage. for many, even the cna is as high as some can make it in life, but it does not mean to discard of them like tattered clothing. sometimes, even in feeling that the demand should be more, you have to deal with what you've got.

again, i'm hoping that i have not sounded too preachy, nor did i intend to attempt to insult the dedicated bsn nurses that are out there. but, we're here, also, and i have the confidence in myself to say that even in my position, i can be an asset.

[Absolutely13]

The absolute and utter ignorance of the United States nurses is proof in itself! We have the elite nurses who speak of themselves as BSN's who have taken uncounted premed classes and have ghostly experiences with Clara Barton to center their zen. Gasbags ladies! We'll contact you when public health nursing becomes the big hit. Until then ladies, share the same friggen license.

[Absolutely13]

I'm sorry, but I disagree. The ADN/ASN is a two-year degree, regardless of the amount of time that it takes one to complete. It takes some people five or six years to complete a BSN, due to waiting lists or not realizing what career path they wanted to take when first starting college. That does not change that fact that the BSN is a four-year degree.

I do understand what you are trying to say about the infrastructure in our educational system. However, other countries have successfully accomplished this despite similar nursing shortages and issues. I don't advocate completely eliminating ADN programs, but instead making a requirement that within so many years of practice the ADN nurse must continue their education to the BSN level. This is not a foreign concept. In most states, teachers are required to continue their education to the master's level within a few years of beginning their teaching career.

Look, The United States has 100X more Nurses than any other country. Your argument has already lost. All of my teachers are masters level. So my 3 year degree is worth half of your 4 year degree? You sound very bitter paying your student loans.

[angel337, MSN, RN]

No. That means that LPNs should increase their entry into practice to an Associates Degree, along with RNs increasing their entry into practice to a BSN. Spare me the sob stories about the single welfare mothers who need a "quick" education to get into the working world to bring them out of poverty, yada yada yada. Nursing does not need to be the "welfare" of health care professions. We are paid, and compensated as such. Along with our image that the public has of us.

Most of the public thinks that nursing is nothing more than "on the job training" and requires little if any college education. I don't care the public thinks that we are wonderful They think we are wonderful because we are stupid enough to work for as little as we do, have no power, and we are pushed around by everyone in the hospital, (as evidenced by the stories here about getting no support from supervisors in enforcing visiting hours). They think that we are just uneducated "doctor helpers".

That image will never change until we raise ourselves to the standards of other health care professionals. Nurses are a dime a dozen, and are used as interchangeable "widgets". We allow our professional practice to be sold to the highest bidder. We allow our professional practice to be "de professiononalized". "Anybody can be a nurse". Just put on scrubs and go to it.

Is that what you want nursings image to be? That is what is being sold to the public by the hospitals. If they had their way, they would de- professionalize the entire professional practice of an RN and hire high school dropouts to fill our jobs. We enable them to accomplish this by not pushing for higher educational levals for nursing. The publics sees little differance in the differant education levels that we have. Not much separates most nurses from blue collar jobs that can be had with a short educational path. One year for an LPN, two years for as Associates Degree and off you go to work? 6 months of OJT for a Medical Assistant?

We have no one to blame but ourselves for this entire mess. JMHO and my NY $0.02.

Lindarn, RN, BSN, CCRN

Spokane, Washington

linda, you are absolutely correct in everything you posted..but here is the problem, nursing can be a VERY, VERY dirty job. once people come out of school and work the floor they don't feel like professionals anymore, they feel like servants, so what happens?? 2 years later they are looking for positions that make them feel more useful and not so thankless as bedside nursing. they move on to bigger and better positions that allow them to feel respected. this is the reason why 2 year programs will always exist. the ANA recognizes that it will be nearly impossible to get 4 year degreed people to stick to bedside nursing..and the reason is because we know that a BSN will offer more choices once we get tired of dealing with demanding, ungrateful and super sick patients and their families. i have a BSN and trust me, it is always in the back of mind what my next step will be. the only reason why i have not left bedside nursing is because for one it works for my family schedule right now, and i work in a very nice supportive work place. another issue that bugs me is that when you finally do get away from the bedside you take a pay cut. why is that?? its not fair to have more education and get paid less just because you have a m-f position that doesn't send you home crying everyday. taking care of sick people has to be one of the hardest jobs out there and under appreciated. if i had a penny for every time i heard a nurse say "i didn't go to school for 4-5 years to wipe butt". it may sound crazy, but its true. its going to take a lot to make people realize that they should go to school for 4 years and be responsible for their duties, the cna's duties and positive patient outcomes..all while working short staffed and no breaks. doesn't sound "professional" to me. i came into nursing with eyes wide open, there were no surprises for me because i knew exactly what i was getting into and i have very few regrets but unfortunately everyone cannot say that. well i could go on and on but that will be my wind city 2 cents.

[pagandeva2000, LPN]

linda, you are absolutely correct in everything you posted..but here is the problem, nursing can be a VERY, VERY dirty job. once people come out of school and work the floor they don't feel like professionals anymore, they feel like servants, so what happens?? 2 years later they are looking for positions that make them feel more useful and not so thankless as bedside nursing. they move on to bigger and better positions that allow them to feel respected. this is the reason why 2 year programs will always exist. the ANA recognizes that it will be nearly impossible to get 4 year degreed people to stick to bedside nursing..and the reason is because we know that a BSN will offer more choices once we get tired of dealing with demanding, ungrateful and super sick patients and their families. i have a BSN and trust me, it is always in the back of mind what my next step will be. the only reason why i have not left bedside nursing is because for one it works for my family schedule right now, and i work in a very nice supportive work place. another issue that bugs me is that when you finally do get away from the bedside you take a pay cut. why is that?? its not fair to have more education and get paid less just because you have a m-f position that doesn't send you home crying everyday. taking care of sick people has to be one of the hardest jobs out there and under appreciated. if i had a penny for every time i heard a nurse say "i didn't go to school for 4-5 years to wipe butt". it may sound crazy, but its true. its going to take a lot to make people realize that they should go to school for 4 years and be responsible for their duties, the cna's duties and positive patient outcomes..all while working short staffed and no breaks. doesn't sound "professional" to me. i came into nursing with eyes wide open, there were no surprises for me because i knew exactly what i was getting into and i have very few regrets but unfortunately everyone cannot say that. well i could go on and on but that will be my wind city 2 cents.

That is one of the other issues I have; just what you mentioned...nursing itself, the real essence of nursing is just that to the outsider as well as the average nurse...is a dirty job. Many BSNs (not all, but many that I have encountered) leave the bedside where they are needed the most. And, while I definitely believe that nursing should gain the respect it deserves, SOMEONE has to do the dirty work to obtain those positive outcomes in patient care that ALL nurses, may they be LPN, Diploma, ADN or BSN that care really strive for.

There is a place for all of us; I am as passionate about that as I am to wish that somehow, we can do this together, without dismissing the rest. I think that we continue to destroy ourselves by total disregard to others within. Decisions made in nursing affect ALL of us in one way or another.

[elkpark]

another issue that bugs me is that when you finally do get away from the bedside you take a pay cut. why is that?? its not fair to have more education and get paid less just because you have a m-f position that doesn't send you home crying everyday.

It's "fair" because it's simple marketplace supply and demand -- nurses are fighting over those cushy, M-F, pleasant jobs, and the hospitals can't fill the bedside positions. So they have to pay more for bedside positions. I'm currently working prn in two different divisions of a large healthcare system -- doing acute care, bedside nursing in one facility, and working in a community health education program that is fairly "cushy" and fun. It's the same employer, and the same "me" -- same education, credentials, experience; but I get paid $8/hour more when I'm working as an inpatient bedside nurse than in the community education program. Why? Because nurses are lined up, hoping to get a chance to get into the community education program, and the inpatient program has a hard time staffing the units ... Makes sense to me, and I'm not complaining (mind you, I wouldn't turn down the money if they wanted to pay me the same rate in the community ed program, but I understand the rationale).

[tferdaise]

Lindarn, that was my point a couple of weeks ago, that Speach, PT, OT all have masters degrees, it wasn't like that in the past, but they changed over. The same thing can happen in Nursing too...

Physical Therapy ASSISTANTS have a two year ASSOCIATES DEGREE AS ENTRY INTO PRACTICE!!! What does that say about RNs and LPNs? What does that tell other health care professionals about the nursing profession? JMHO, and my NY $0.02.

Lindarn, RN, BSN, CCRN

Spokane, Washington

[tferdaise]

AMEN !!!!!!

That image will never change until we raise ourselves to the standards of other health care professionals. Nurses are a dime a dozen, and are used as interchangeable "widgets". We allow our professional practice to be sold to the highest bidder. We allow our professional practice to be "de professiononalized". "Anybody can be a nurse". Just put on scrubs and go to it.

Lindarn, RN, BSN, CCRN

Spokane, Washington