Is it true that a BSN will be mandatory soon?

PMFB-RN, RN · Jun 9, 2008

I don't have a problem with the associate degree programs, but the graduates should not be recognized as nurses, but "nursing assistants," just like physical therapy assistants.

*** I have been thinking why do we even need the BSN degree anyway? You don't need it to go to grad school. CRNA requires a BS or BA but many schools accept degrees other than BSN. You don't need it at all to be an NP. There isn't much nursing taught in BSN programs that isn't taught in ADN programs. I haven't learned a thing about nursing in my BSN program. Those who wish to be public health nurses may be better served with degrees in public health. Those who wish to be managers may be better served with degrees in business admin or marketing or managment. As a person who often precepts new grad nurses I can't tell any difference between the ADN and BSN new grads on the floor in the SICU where I work.

I think a better idea would be to eliminate the BSN as an entry point to RN practice and standardize on the ADN as entry to RN practice. Those who want to be NPs or CRNAs or CNS should get a BSN when the go back to advanced practice school and get rid of the MSN as entry into advanced practice. Or continue to allow, as we do now, direct ADNs direct entry into MSN programs, bypassing BSN alltogether.

tferdaise · Jun 9, 2008

Well of course not, that would be left to the NIT (Nurse in Training) as well as get the coffee for the BSN....

*** SO would the professional level RNs still punch a time clock?

tferdaise · Jun 9, 2008

Your a little misinformated.

First off to get your MSN, you need a BSN, also for the CRNA programs you need a BSN or related field (not too sure what they mean by that.) The same with your NP, since its a MSN degree.

The issue we have is, nurses work with other healthcare professionals who have a higher level of education then most nurses. Look at Speach, they have to have a Masters degree, same with PT as well as OT. More and more healthcare displines are starting to require a undergrad, Respitory will be doing this very soon, mark my word...

Currently nursing is not take seriously as a profession, it still looked at by man as a vocation, and the only way to change this, is to make it manditory to have your BSN as an entry level point into nursing.

Why does this bother you so much ?

*** I have been thinking why do we even need the BSN degree anyway? You don't need it to go to grad school. CRNA requires a BS or BA but many schools accept degrees other than BSN. You don't need it at all to be an NP. There isn't much nursing taught in BSN programs that isn't taught in ADN programs. I haven't learned a thing about nursing in my BSN program. Those who wish to be public health nurses may be better served with degrees in public health. Those who wish to be managers may be better served with degrees in business admin or marketing or managment. As a person who often precepts new grad nurses I can't tell any difference between the ADN and BSN new grads on the floor in the SICU where I work.
I think a better idea would be to eliminate the BSN as an entry point to RN practice and standardize on the ADN as entry to RN practice. Those who want to be NPs or CRNAs or CNS should get a BSN when the go back to advanced practice school and get rid of the MSN as entry into advanced practice. Or continue to allow, as we do now, direct ADNs direct entry into MSN programs, bypassing BSN alltogether.

jjjoy, LPN · Jun 9, 2008

I wouldn't make ADN a requirement. Instead, how about an associate's degree or higher in any field along with appropriate pre-reqs? It may still not match other fields but nursing is not other fields. It has its own unique history and issues. At least with this model, no one would be under the impression that a person doesn't need any college and it would be clear that at least 4 years total of schooling were required. While most ADN programs do take 3 years to complete, there ARE still programs out there that squeeze it ALL into two years. And look at Accelerated BSN programs!!! All in one year!!

Schools could develop an "health sciences" AA that meets nursing school pre-reqs to make it more efficient. Wouldn't that make getting an AA and RN just as long as getting an BSN? Except that under this model, there wouldn't be any BSN programs. A person might get a bachelor's in psychology or biology and then apply to an RN program. What do you earn in nursing school, then? The right to a nursing license. The right to practice professional nursing.

I'm just thinking maybe it would work to detach nursing programs from degree (associate's, bachelor's) programs. It certainly is discouraging for those with bachelors or masters degrees already to go back and take classes towards an associates degree when they don't want the associates degree, they just want the nursing program.

By requiring as associates as a minimum requirement and removing the BSN completely as an entry to nursing, it ups the educational requirement a little (not as much as some would like, but it's something, and it would be clear an applied across the board for *ALL* RN programs), it makes everyone clearly go through the SAME training to earn their RN, and it removes the question of ADN or BSN from the picture completely.

Just some thoughts!!

PMFB-RN, RN · Jun 9, 2008

Your a little misinformated.

First off to get your MSN, you need a BSN,

*** Sorry but it is you who are misinformed. There is no requirement to have a BSN to get an MSN. Many schools offer ADN to MSN with no BSN required or awarded in the program.

also for the CRNA programs you need a BSN or related field (not too sure what they mean by that).

*** All CRNA programs require a bachelors degree, not all require a BSN.

The same with your NP, since its a MSN degree.

*** No, that is incorrect. An ADN RN can go directly into MSN NP programs without a BSN and without ever getting one. For a professional nurse you don't seem very informed about the educational pathways for nurses.

The issue we have is, nurses work with other healthcare professionals who have a higher level of education then most nurses. Look at Speach, they have to have a Masters degree, same with PT as well as OT.

*** It's not an issue for me if other fields feel the need for degree inflation.

More and more healthcare displines are starting to require a undergrad, Respitory will be doing this very soon, mark my word...

*** I agree.

Currently nursing is not take seriously as a profession, it still looked at by man as a vocation, and the only way to change this, is to make it manditory to have your BSN as an entry level point into nursing.

*** Really? The ONLY way to achieve that is to make BSN the entry point? I disagree that BSN will make everybody view RNs as professionals. It won't make us any more money either. One main difference between the other fields you mentioned is that they can bill directly for their work. We can't. That is the difference as far as I can see.

Why does this bother you so much

*** Not bothered in the least. Juist discussing ideas.

tferdaise · Jun 9, 2008

http://www.midwestern.edu/crna/

Here is the CRNA requirments..

http://nursing.asu.edu/programs/graduate/dnp/postbacc.htm

Here is the NP program.

What you quote are Hybrid programs, which allow people to GET a masters degree without having a BSN, but what you failed to show was, you really do get a BSN in those programs.

Grand Canyon Univerisity offers a Hybrid program, a co worker is in it. She will have her BSN in 2 months, but the difference is, there is no graduation ceremony, she just starts her MSN program the following week.

UCSF is the leader in the Hybrid program, they offered the very first No related to healthcare degree to MSN program. As long as you had a undergrad degree and passed the reuirements they as for, you will be excepted into this program. Its a VERY tough program, the first 12 months, you work on your RN, then the following 15 months, you are working on your MSN. Think about how compact of a program that is.

But to get back to your points, yes there are programs out there that allow a ADN to get thier MSN, but they are few.

But I would love for you to show me a CRNA school that takes anyone that does not have a BSN? I'll give you a hint, I'm working towards that degree myself, and have contacted 5 schools, the Degree of nursing or related degree that they state as a requirement has to do with foegien nurses.

Tony

Your a little misinformated.
First off to get your MSN, you need a BSN,
*** Sorry but it is you who are misinformed. There is no requirement to have a BSN to get an MSN. Many schools offer ADN to MSN with no BSN required or awarded in the program.
also for the CRNA programs you need a BSN or related field (not too sure what they mean by that).
*** All CRNA programs require a bachelors degree, not all require a BSN.
The same with your NP, since its a MSN degree.
*** No, that is incorrect. An ADN RN can go directly into MSN NP programs without a BSN and without ever getting one. For a professional nurse you don't seem very informed about the educational pathways for nurses.
The issue we have is, nurses work with other healthcare professionals who have a higher level of education then most nurses. Look at Speach, they have to have a Masters degree, same with PT as well as OT.
*** It's not an issue for me if other fields feel the need for degree inflation.
More and more healthcare displines are starting to require a undergrad, Respitory will be doing this very soon, mark my word...
*** I agree.
Currently nursing is not take seriously as a profession, it still looked at by man as a vocation, and the only way to change this, is to make it manditory to have your BSN as an entry level point into nursing.
*** Really? The ONLY way to achieve that is to make BSN the entry point? I disagree that BSN will make everybody view RNs as professionals. It won't make us any more money either. One main difference between the other fields you mentioned is that they can bill directly for their work. We can't. That is the difference as far as I can see.
Why does this bother you so much
*** Not bothered in the least. Juist discussing ideas.

PMFB-RN, RN · Jun 9, 2008

http://www.midwestern.edu/crna/

Here is the CRNA requirments..

*** You mean the requirements for one single school.

http://nursing.asu.edu/programs/graduate/dnp/postbacc.htm

Here is the NP program.

*** Again one single school.

What you quote are Hybrid programs, which allow people to GET a masters degree without having a BSN, but what you failed to show was, you really do get a BSN in those programs.

*** No, I was referring to the ADN to MSN programs where no BSN is awarded at all.

Grand Canyon Univerisity offers a Hybrid program, a co worker is in it. She will have her BSN in 2 months, but the difference is, there is no graduation ceremony, she just starts her MSN program the following week.

*** Yes, I know about that program.

But to get back to your points, yes there are programs out there that allow a ADN to get thier MSN, but they are few.

***

"No Bachelor of Science in Nursing degree is awarded as part of the Bridge entry option."

http://www.midwives.org/academics.asp?id=162&pid=56

http://nursing.unc.edu/degree/rn_options/rn-msn.html

http://www.nursing.vanderbilt.edu/msn/prespecrn.html

"Students in this degree program earn only the MSN degree, bypassing the BSN."

http://www.musc.edu/nursing/academics/shared/rnmsn.htm

http://www.hpu.edu/index.cfm?contentID=861&siteID=1

http://www.gannon.edu/PROGRAMS/GRAD/rnmsn.asp

Above are links I turned up with a quick web search to a few of the RN to MSN programs that do not require a BSN to enter and do not award a BSN as part of the program. Most require the ADN nurse to take 6 to 10 "bridge" classes, usually one or two semesters worth then enter graduate school.

But I would love for you to show me a CRNA school that takes anyone that does not have a BSN?

***

http://perth.uwlax.edu/Biology/graduate/crna.htm#Admission

Required a BSN or BS in a basic science.

http://www.nurseanesthesia.org/prospectivestudents/admission.html

BSN or Associate Degree or Diploma in Nursing plus another appropriate baccalaureate degree.

http://www2.smumn.edu/deptpages/%7ENAP/

Require "appropriate" degree to include BSN, physical sciences, behavioral sciences and some others.

http://www.rosalindfranklin.edu/dnn/chp/home/CHP/NurseAnesthesia/tabid/1460/Default.aspx

Any bachelors degree from an accredited college or university

There are lots more but these are a few.

http://www.barry.edu/anesthesiology/admissions/Default.htm

BSN or appropriate science degree. Non-science degrees considered on case by case basis.

http://www.baymedical.org/education/gooding/info.php

BSN or other health related degree, i.e bio, chem, physics, other

http://www.wolford.edu/applicants.php

BSN or related science.

http://www.laroche.edu/graduate/DisciplineDetail.asp?DisciplineID=8

Any bachelors from an accredited college but must have taken certain pre-req classes.

http://www.excelahealth.org/Anesthesia/Admission.asp?optn=Anesthesia&suboptn=AdmissionSchool

BSN or other degree the program considers appropriate.

There are others but these are what I found with a quick search. My best friend just left for CRNA school this week. He has an ADN and a BS in biology. and will graduate CRNA school with a MS in biology.

RNPATL, DNP, RN · Jun 9, 2008

That is the one thing that shouts through my brain. I am an LPN and am a dedicated to nursing within my scope of practice. I know that I bring many things to the table to contribute in a very positive way to nursing. I continue to update myself by reading journals, my textbooks and website resources to be current my teaching and practice. I know and comprehend why people wish to elevate the entrance level of nursing to BSN, but the question that haunts me is what about the rest of us??
I remember reading a post once here a month or so ago where that particular RN stated that LPNs earned our licenses in order not to work for minimum wage at Walmart. How hurtful that is to hear that! What being an LPN has done for most is allow a person to work a respectable job without having to depend on welfare, or accept a minimal wage job anywhere.
There are some people that wish to elevate themselves in nursing, but life circumstances have not allowed them for whatever reasons, other times, have been discouraged by the application process and many other things. And, then, there are those like me that just don't feel like it. Does this mean that those that can't or don't wish to are to be automatically thrown in the garbage like useless paper?
This is not a bash towards the higher licensed/educated nurses out there, but from what I have read, I see how we are really our own worse enemies.

Thank you for this post. I think it is very important to recognize the contribution that every level of nursing makes to the entire profession and to the patient (whomever they may be). I started my nursing journey as an LPN and worked bedside as an LPN for over 17 years. I always wanted to go back to school, but life circumstances, children, family obligation (etc.) prevented me from returning to school. Once I had the opportunity, I did return to school, became an RN, then earned my BSN and am now working on my graduate degree and then my doctorate.

I have been a practicing nurse for over 25 years now and can say that entry level into nursing has always been an issue and always stirs many different emotions. However, here is the point that I would like to make,

Nurses must come together as a professional group and define their own future. If we, as a collective body, fail to define who we are as professionals (and yes, this includes entry level into professional practice) then other professions will take the opportunity to define it for us by forcing changes to our scope of practice.

Please look at the other health care professionals today, physical therapist - entry level now at the doctorate level, Speech Pathology - moving from Master entry into the doctorate level, pharmacy - moving from BS to PharmD for entry level and the list goes on.

Nurses are the coordinators and the managers of patient's care, yet we have the lowest academic preparation. With advancing technology and new research on the horizon, we must recognize that we have to better educate our new nurses in order to properly prepare them for practice.

One thing to remember ... entry level means entry into practice and does not impact currently practicing nurses. Nurses in practice today have education through experience. While earning a BSN may be the direction some go in, others may decide it is not for them. But, for those getting ready to enter the profession, as nurses, we really need to say the BSN should be our entry for professional practice.

PMFB-RN, RN · Jun 9, 2008

but i would love for you to show me a crna school that takes anyone that does not have a bsn?
tony

here are some more:

http://www.amc.edu/academic/nurseanes/admission_requirements.html

baccalaureate degree in nursing or appropriate science degree. (examples of an appropriate science degree include chemistry, biology and physics). those who have degrees in other areas will be considered based on their academic background and basic science achievement.

http://www.hsrsna.com/admission.htm

be a graduate from an n.l.n or a.a.c.n. accredited baccalaureate program in nursing or have another appropriate baccalaureate degree (biology, chemistry, etc.), from an accredited school

http://www.nbsna.org/requirements.htm

bsn or baccalaureate degree in another science that the admissions committee deems appropriate.

*** there are several other programs that require a bsn but other degrees are considered on a case by case basis and other programs that accept any degree and more that accept science degrees.

tferdaise · Jun 9, 2008

I guess my point is yuo have to have an undergrad degree to get into a CRNA program.

http://www.midwestern.edu/crna/
Here is the CRNA requirments..
*** You mean the requirements for one single school.
http://nursing.asu.edu/programs/graduate/dnp/postbacc.htm
Here is the NP program.
*** Again one single school.
What you quote are Hybrid programs, which allow people to GET a masters degree without having a BSN, but what you failed to show was, you really do get a BSN in those programs.
*** No, I was referring to the ADN to MSN programs where no BSN is awarded at all.
Grand Canyon Univerisity offers a Hybrid program, a co worker is in it. She will have her BSN in 2 months, but the difference is, there is no graduation ceremony, she just starts her MSN program the following week.
*** Yes, I know about that program.
But to get back to your points, yes there are programs out there that allow a ADN to get thier MSN, but they are few.
***
"No Bachelor of Science in Nursing degree is awarded as part of the Bridge entry option."
http://www.midwives.org/academics.asp?id=162&pid=56
http://nursing.unc.edu/degree/rn_options/rn-msn.html
http://www.nursing.vanderbilt.edu/msn/prespecrn.html
"Students in this degree program earn only the MSN degree, bypassing the BSN."
http://www.musc.edu/nursing/academics/shared/rnmsn.htm
http://www.hpu.edu/index.cfm?contentID=861&siteID=1
http://www.gannon.edu/PROGRAMS/GRAD/rnmsn.asp
Above are links I turned up with a quick web search to a few of the RN to MSN programs that do not require a BSN to enter and do not award a BSN as part of the program. Most require the ADN nurse to take 6 to 10 "bridge" classes, usually one or two semesters worth then enter graduate school.
But I would love for you to show me a CRNA school that takes anyone that does not have a BSN?
***
http://perth.uwlax.edu/Biology/graduate/crna.htm#Admission
Required a BSN or BS in a basic science.
http://www.nurseanesthesia.org/prospectivestudents/admission.html
BSN or Associate Degree or Diploma in Nursing plus another appropriate baccalaureate degree.
http://www2.smumn.edu/deptpages/%7ENAP/
Require "appropriate" degree to include BSN, physical sciences, behavioral sciences and some others.
http://www.rosalindfranklin.edu/dnn/chp/home/CHP/NurseAnesthesia/tabid/1460/Default.aspx
Any bachelors degree from an accredited college or university
There are lots more but these are a few.
http://www.barry.edu/anesthesiology/admissions/Default.htm
BSN or appropriate science degree. Non-science degrees considered on case by case basis.
http://www.baymedical.org/education/gooding/info.php
BSN or other health related degree, i.e bio, chem, physics, other
http://www.wolford.edu/applicants.php
BSN or related science.
http://www.laroche.edu/graduate/DisciplineDetail.asp?DisciplineID=8
Any bachelors from an accredited college but must have taken certain pre-req classes.
http://www.excelahealth.org/Anesthesia/Admission.asp?optn=Anesthesia&suboptn=AdmissionSchool
BSN or other degree the program considers appropriate.
There are others but these are what I found with a quick search. My best friend just left for CRNA school this week. He has an ADN and a BS in biology. and will graduate CRNA school with a MS in biology.

PMFB-RN, RN · Jun 9, 2008

I guess my point is yuo have to have an undergrad degree to get into a CRNA program.

*** You can't make that point.

I already made that point way back in post #772 when I said this:

"You don't need it (it being a BSN) to go to grad school. CRNA requires a BS or BA but many schools accept degrees other than BSN."

You then asked for links to schools that did not require a BSN and I provided a bunch of them.

Everybody knows that the accrediting body for CRNA schools (the AANA) requires a bachelors degree. It does not require that degree to be in nursing.

You stated that I was misinformed, that a BSN was required to get a MSN when that is clearly not true.

Elvish, BSN, DNP, RN, NP · Jun 9, 2008

Please, let's do debate the topic and not each other.

It is possible.

Thanks.