If they can ask for it..they aren't too sedated...

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I recently had a patient on my unit that had fractures to BLE. She had been high when she wrecked. This patient had surgery, then went to a physical rehab center. She was back again to have her external fixator removed.

She was her for SIX weeks.

When I had her, she had:

A dilaudid PCA with the maximum dose for her height and weight

Two Percocet 10 mg ordered q 4 hours for "breakthrough" pain

1 mg Ativan IVP q 6 hours

25 mg Benadryl IVP q 6 hours

She requested her percocet everytime she could crack one eye open. She wanted the benadryl and ativan given at the same time.

One night, while I was taking care of her, she was extremely sedated. She would call out for percocet, but when you went in the room she was asleep and wouldn't rouse to verbal stimulation. When she did wake, she stuck out her tongue and mumbled "Juth put them on mah tongue" even though there were no injury to her upper extremities. She was too sedated to hold a cup of water. Other nurses had poured the water into her mouth. I refused. I told her that I would not give her the pills unless she could put them in her mouth and swallow water. She still had her PCA and it wasn't maxed out. Later, when she was more alert, I did give her the percocet.

She reported me the next day.

My manager wrote me up and said: "If they can ask for it, they aren't too sedated."

I had been taught in nursing school that we are to use our judgement. A physician's order will not save our license. If we give a patient narcotics when we see they are too sedated and a sentinel event occurse, we are liable.

What do you think about my manager's statement? I was written up for "withholding pain medicine". I refused to sign it because she had a PCA. Since it wasn't maxed out, she still had access to pain medicine.

What do you think?

Specializes in Ortho and Med/Surg.

Thanks for all the responses. I am much more careful with my charting now. It is difficult because we're ortho and we have 9-10 patients apiece at night. Other units max out at seven, but our last manager "severely underbudgeted" us and night shift suffers. Between hourly rounding, turning q 2 and getting people to the bathroom (it often takes two - my tech and myself), I feel I don't have the time to chart as adequately as I did when I worked days and had five whole patients.

My manager addressed the sleep issue as well. She said "Sleep is not a sign that the patient isn't hurting. People who are in pain can become so exhausted that they just fall asleep. If they request pain medicine, and you back in the room to find they are sleeping, you need to WAKE THEM UP and re-evaluate their pain level."

I am really frustrated with her. She is 25 and worked as a staff nurse for a full 23 months before being promoted. I realize the patient wrote in a complaint, but she that patient also "fired" two other nurses because they wouldn't keep her sedated, she's a known drug user and A DOCTOR said "This woman is just a drug addict and all we've done is up her tolerance!" (He wasn't the doc prescribing the pills to her). The doctor that did give her all the drugs let her have them right up until she left. (We usually wean people of the pca 24 hours before discharge).

Ugh.

I feel like: Give the medicine - Risk aspiration or oversedation.

Don't give the medicine (even though she still had access to her PCA) - Get a write-up.

Damned if you do.. damned if you don't . Sometimes, I really get disgusted at management.

Specializes in CCU, SICU, CVSICU, Precepting & Teaching.

i hope you documented the patient's condition when she asked you for the percocet!

Specializes in Acute Care Cardiac, Education, Prof Practice.

Sounds like your manager is more about flexing her powers of persuasion than backing up her nurses.

It it were me I would be looking for a floor transfer.

Bless your heart for working ortho. There is nothing I hate more than getting an admit at 2am "78 y/o hip fx" ugh...You can never get them comfortable, or risk having to Narcan them later. (We are primarily a cardiac/surgical GI floor, but with the recent economy we are a "whatever, whenever, wherever" floor)

You were absolutely correct in not giving her the meds. I am not even sure how I would have handled the situation, however usually I try to be as sensitive as I can, and just explain to them that I can not give them medication, without the risk of them not waking up again.

Usually a little dose of "what a CNS depressant is" scares people enough, but drug seekers are tough.

Best of luck,

Tait

The closest to this for me is that I ask to be woken up to recieve pain meds. My surgeries are on my face/head and I have a very high pain tollerence. HOwever, once the pain hits I am in agonizing pain and we have trouble getting it back under controle. So Whether it is day surgery or inpatient surgery for the first 3 days I take all the meds I can as often as I can because I know that if I let the pain take a hold it takes us about a day to bring it back down.

One time a nurse would not give me my meds (differnet situation then you described) but I did not plan to report her, it ended up happening in a round about way (I was making sure it would not happen again for my next surgery and the pre-op clinic nurse figured it out and was ****** and reported it on my behalf)

however, if a nurse ever thought I was to medicated, while i may disagree with her, i would never report her.

Specializes in LTC, Hospice, corrections, +.

I think the worst thing is a manager who was not there to assess the patient didn't back your judgement. I'd think long and hard about that.

Specializes in Maternal - Child Health.

Your manager was out of line.

Next time a patient requests medication that you believe is contraindicated per your best judgement, call your manager and ask her to come give it.

If you work a different shift, do the same with the nursing supervisor.

They'll quit second guessing you in record time.

I'm with the consensus here - you did the right thing. :up:

And Jolie's advice is great!

We had a patient in our ER, nail gun to foot, got morphine in the ER, home after removal of nail, fell asleep in his chair at home, dead in the morning.

The family sued the nurse who gave the morphine, the doc who ordered it and the hospital. The family won.

steph

Specializes in Staff nurse.
I'm with the consensus here - you did the right thing. :up:

And Jolie's advice is great!

We had a patient in our ER, nail gun to foot, got morphine in the ER, home after removal of nail, fell asleep in his chair at home, dead in the morning.

The family sued the nurse who gave the morphine, the doc who ordered it and the hospital. The family won.

steph

Did this pt. go home alone? Or was there someone to watch him for s/s of problems? Wow, that is really sad, for everyone concerned. Was it really avoidable?

I really think you should take this up the chain of command. I think the bottom line is that you did what any prudent, responsible nurse would have done, and it is totally unreasonable of your manager to second guess that, if the situation was as you described. She wasn't there, so the only POV she had was that of a pt who was very sedated at the time of this incident. Not acceptable. You were right not to sign the write up.

Did this pt. go home alone? Or was there someone to watch him for s/s of problems? Wow, that is really sad, for everyone concerned. Was it really avoidable?

He went home with his wife - and wanted to sleep with his foot up in the recliner chair so she went to bed after getting him settled HOURS after the last morphine in the ER.

There was no real proof, even with the autopsy, that morphine killed him.

It was a sad commentary on our court system.

BUT, you must be careful and you must document thoroughly.

steph

Specializes in MICU, neuro, orthotrauma.

Your manager was still wet behind the ears when she went into management. Really, you need to speak with her boss about this situation, because she is training her staff to endanger lives so that her customer service statistics improve.

Specializes in psych, addictions, hospice, education.

I agree that you did the absolute right thing, and I'm proud of you. There are some things I'd like to suggest though, that I didn't see mentioned before (but maybe I missed them since I was skimming all the responses, so apologies if that's the case)...

Whenever you have a situation that your gut says might be questioned (you know the feeling if you've been a nurse for awhile, and often even "just because" you have that certain feeling) make a copy of your complete documentation and keep in in someplace safe, if it's possible to make such copies. I have a file at home where I keep such things in case I ever need them. This may not be "according to policy" but it helps me feel safer. I had to use something from the file once.

I wonder if your manager knew all the details. You didn't write about all you might have discussed with her, so I'm wondering if she knew everything. How would you feel about talking to her more about it? She's pretty new as a nurse and as a manager, and surely wants the best for the patients AND her staff. I would hope that anyway. All the talk about going to her boss and transferring to another unit and about how awful she is rubs me wrong...I'm not sure she has had a full chance to see your side of the story! If she has, that's another thing, but if she hasn't, it would work to both your benefit to talk it through.

Again, you did the right thing! Be proud!

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