If they can ask for it..they aren't too sedated...

Nurses General Nursing

Published

I recently had a patient on my unit that had fractures to BLE. She had been high when she wrecked. This patient had surgery, then went to a physical rehab center. She was back again to have her external fixator removed.

She was her for SIX weeks.

When I had her, she had:

A dilaudid PCA with the maximum dose for her height and weight

Two Percocet 10 mg ordered q 4 hours for "breakthrough" pain

1 mg Ativan IVP q 6 hours

25 mg Benadryl IVP q 6 hours

She requested her percocet everytime she could crack one eye open. She wanted the benadryl and ativan given at the same time.

One night, while I was taking care of her, she was extremely sedated. She would call out for percocet, but when you went in the room she was asleep and wouldn't rouse to verbal stimulation. When she did wake, she stuck out her tongue and mumbled "Juth put them on mah tongue" even though there were no injury to her upper extremities. She was too sedated to hold a cup of water. Other nurses had poured the water into her mouth. I refused. I told her that I would not give her the pills unless she could put them in her mouth and swallow water. She still had her PCA and it wasn't maxed out. Later, when she was more alert, I did give her the percocet.

She reported me the next day.

My manager wrote me up and said: "If they can ask for it, they aren't too sedated."

I had been taught in nursing school that we are to use our judgement. A physician's order will not save our license. If we give a patient narcotics when we see they are too sedated and a sentinel event occurse, we are liable.

What do you think about my manager's statement? I was written up for "withholding pain medicine". I refused to sign it because she had a PCA. Since it wasn't maxed out, she still had access to pain medicine.

What do you think?

Specializes in ED.

I would have given her more education on using the pca function and to push the button more often, then if she is not having relief and it is maxed, given vitals are within normal limits, give her the breakthrough meds. But if she was breathing less than 12/min or her sats were dipping it is within your rights to hold the meds even if she is awake enough to ask for it.

Specializes in Ante-Intra-Postpartum, Post Gyne.
Wow, sounds like you need to report you manager. Don't you have a union or are you not in California?

California is not a Unionized state. Many hospitals, mine included (even though sister hospitals are unionized), are not unionized.

Specializes in Med/Surg, ICU, educator.

Like prior poster stated, I hope you documented your findings, CYA! When things like this happen to me, I always document respirations, neuros, and just general alertness. When I determine that it is inappropriate to give med, if the patient is groggy, I explain why and offer alternative (ice/heat).

Specializes in Emergency.

Wow. I thought our job was to put "SAFETY FIRST". There would be no way in hell I'm going to dump water into someone's mouth so they can choke down 2 Percocets. Was she already too high to physically push the button on her PCA?

Look, next time your patient is too sedated to move her arms and is in 10/10 pain do this: crush up the Percocet, get a small straw (a dollar bill will also do), fill it with her drugs, put your mouth on one end, and blow it directly into the patient's nose. Because being a good nurse means giving the patient whatever they want whenever they want it, not caring about something as silly as BREATHING or ASPIRATING. Duh!

Specializes in private duty/home health, med/surg.

As someone else mentioned, since she wasn't maxed out on her PCA, then she wouldn't even qualify for the Percocet for breakthrough pain. IMO, you were following the orders by not giving it.

Next time tell the manager she can put her license on the line by not only giving the Percocet when it wasn't called for but also overmedicating her.

Remember, "sedation precedes respiratory depression!"

I wouldn't sign it either. They could stand on their heads before I did. She had a PCA that wasn't maxed out so you didn't withhold meds...she still had access to them.

Did you document well?! Did you write down slurred speech and can't lift her arms?! If you did I would bring it to the manager to look at. I would turn it around back on her and ask if the patient aspirated on the meds what would have been her reaction then?! Remind her your job is to always protect the patient when they can't protect themselves which is what you did here. Furthermore tell her you won't be pressured to give additional drugs if your nursing assessment indicates otherwise. I wouldn't lose my license for a situation like this. Let her give it and be sued.

Specializes in Geriatrics.

I agree with you totally. You have to use your own judgement when YOUR license is at stake. I have been in similar situations. I've never been written up but snubbed by other nurses because I try to look at all the facts before administering PRN medications. However I would add that not signing a write up is virtually pointless. It still goes in your file. The best thing to do is to sign and write a comment saying exactly why you did what you did. It makes you look like a rational nurse rather than a hot head.

oh my gosh, ABSOLUTELY you need to note exactly what you told us...

about the slurred speech, pouring water down throat, the way she was pronouncing "my" as "mah"...

all of it...

which then, readers would understand why you refused to give.

it is only your notes that would be your saving grace, if this ever went to court.

i would write my very own version of events, and have it added to your file.

and don't ever hesitate to exercise your superior judgment again.

your mgr is plain WRONG.

you may even consider discussing it with her boss.

you did well, op.

really, really well.

leslie

Specializes in Staff nurse.
I agree with you totally. You have to use your own judgement when YOUR license is at stake. I have been in similar situations. I've never been written up but snubbed by other nurses because I try to look at all the facts before administering PRN medications. However I would add that not signing a write up is virtually pointless. It still goes in your file. The best thing to do is to sign and write a comment saying exactly why you did what you did. It makes you look like a rational nurse rather than a hot head.

Yes!! What you can do is sign it after writing that you are signing, adding the following information: then quote verbotem from your nursing notes the slurred speech, etc the pt. exhibited. Then ask for a copy of the form where you explained why you did what you did...for patient safety. That way if somehow this complaint is removed or "lost", you have your copy.

Specializes in Acute Care Psych, DNP Student.

Sounds like a prime example of "customer service" winning over sound nursing practice.

Sounds like a prime example of "customer service" winning over sound nursing practice.

And isn't it ironic and telling that good customer service in this case could actually put the patient in danger. Sad that it has come to this.

In the signature line you could write, "See attached note" so they can't pull any crap and have the note disappear. I would however stand firm on not signing it and getting your manager's boss involved here. This is a very serious issue.

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