(So glad I stumbled across this website again after almost 6 years! I need to change my username because I am not an aspiring nurse anymore, I have been a nurse for almost 3 years! ?)
Anyway, I really do not want to take this new covid vaccine. I know I can’t be the only one who feels this way. Typically I am not an anti-vaxxer but something about this illness is making me think otherwise. For personal reasons I really do not want to take it when available at my hospital, but I’m afraid it will be mandatory. I am almost considering finding a new job if my hospital forces us all to take it. What a shame because I do like my job and wouldn’t know what else to turn to that isn’t nursing, because chances are most healthcare related places of employment will likely require all employees take it.
I want to use the excuse of it being against my religion but I already took the flu vaccine this year. I have nothing against the flu vaccine but didn’t necessarily want it, but my hospital practically FORCED everyone to take it unless they grant you an exemption. I’m afraid they’ll question me why I took the flu shot but cannot take the covid vaccine.
What do you guys think about this? Will you be taking the vaccine? I just want us to be able to make our own decisions about this. If patients can refuse medications, procedures, and treatments, why can’t healthcare workers do the same? I read in multiple articles it will not be required by the federal government but each state and employer can decide whether or not it will be mandatory.
And forget the $1500 “stimulus check” that may be offered if you take it. All the money in the world would not change my mind about taking the vaccine. I feel as though if you have to bribe people to take it, something is peculiar.
I don’t know why this is bothering me so much. It should be a choice in my opinion. But by telling a few friends about not wanting it I feel judged. I have worked with covid patients multiple times since I am one of the younger nurses who does not have any kids/am pregnant. I feel like week after week I was always chosen to go to the covid section. At first I was mad but now it doesn’t bother me. I am not afraid to be near covid patients. Luckily through all this time I haven’t caught it. I always tell people I’d rather catch it than get this vaccine. That’s how strongly I feel against taking the vaccine. All of my non-nursing who have had covid are covered and thriving. To me catching it isn’t the biggest deal but others have called me selfish because I could be spreading it to others. Why is it looked at as selfish for not wanting to inject something into MY body. #mybodymychoice
Am I thinking about this too much? What would you do?
Specializes in NICU, PICU, Transport, L&D, Hospice.
On 1/4/2021 at 12:16 PM, myoglobin said:
I have never had a discussion concerning any of my political opinions or those involving Covid with any client. 90% of my clients are far "to the left" of anyone on this forum Are you saying that I don't have the right to argue my sincerely held beliefs even on a forum designed for people to do just that? My primary concern is that I may be compelled to take a vaccination that I do not wish to take. I would wager that at least 25% of Americans feel exponentially stronger about this issue than me. If you cannot even have a discussion with me (someone who was first in both his undergrad and graduate classes despite my limitations) how are you going to convince the "average Red state person" to take your vaccine and achieve the goals that we both desire?
Are there any specific words that I used which made you feel like I was silencing you? Which words? That's certainly not my intention. My intention is to correct your errors, seek clarification on your thinking, question your logic, and provide credible information about covid and these vaccines and their place in our pandemic response.
I thought we were having a discussion.
As your average health professional, I'm going to convince them using accurate and credible scientific information which is not political and is uninfluenced by the imaginings or analysis of fringe crackpots and quacks.
You only have a right to your opinions and practice preferences as long as they do not jeopardize the care of the people seeking professional help from you. There are standards of practice in every state. Sourcing discredited opinions does nothing to further any discussion, interaction or understanding.
I took it to mean "your opinions are dangerous and outside the mainstream" Strop expressing them or risk being marginalized or perhaps worse having action taken against your license. There is precedent for this as was the case with Dr. Paul Thomas who although he had been "saying his opinions for years" just so happened to get his license suspended after publishing a peer reviewed study calling in to questions health outcomes in children with vaccines https://thehighwire.com/videos/vaccine-study-costs-doctor-his-license/ . While I disagree with his conclusions (you cannot prove causation in cohort studies, they are never more than a "starting point" for suggesting randomized, controlled trials (which would be unethical in the case of vaccination). I do believe that their should be diversity and vigorous debate when it comes to questions of personal liberty such as forced vaccination (as I used to be compelled to partake in when I worked as a bedside ICU nurse, and which MD's were exempt from having to take).
Specializes in NICU, PICU, Transport, L&D, Hospice.
9 minutes ago, myoglobin said:
This was the section I was referencing:
You only have a right to your opinions and practice preferences as long as they do not jeopardize the care of the people seeking professional help from you. There are standards of practice in every state. Sourcing discredited opinions does nothing to further any discussion, interaction or understanding.
I took it to mean "your opinions are dangerous and outside the mainstream" Strop expressing them or risk being marginalized or perhaps worse having action taken against your license. There is precedent for this as was the case with Dr. Paul Thomas who although he had been "saying his opinions for years" just so happened to get his license suspended after publishing a peer reviewed study calling in to questions health outcomes in children with vaccines https://thehighwire.com/videos/vaccine-study-costs-doctor-his-license/ . While I disagree with his conclusions (you cannot prove causation in cohort studies, they are never more than a "starting point" for suggesting randomized, controlled trials (which would be unethical in the case of vaccination). I do believe that their should be diversity and vigorous debate when it comes to questions of personal liberty such as forced vaccination (as I used to be compelled to partake in when I worked as a bedside ICU nurse, and which MD's were exempt from having to take).
THERE IS NO RISK OF FORCED VACCINATION.
I would suggest that there are maybe better and more satisfying places for you to have ongoing discussions about these vaccination fears rather than in a nursing forum. It's not helpful to elevate thinking and analysis which serves to make people feel doubt or concern about vaccinating when the available evidence should encourage confidence and hope for an end to this pandemic with the help of vaccines.
I would suggest that there are maybe better and more satisfying places for you to have ongoing discussions about these vaccination fears rather than in a nursing forum. It's not helpful to elevate thinking and analysis which serves to make people feel doubt or concern about vaccinating when the available evidence should encourage confidence and hope for an end to this pandemic with the help of vaccines.
Well, I myself experienced "forced" vaccination for many years for the influenza vaccine and no less than Dr. Fauci has said he foresees the same with Covid. So I'm not sure where you feel this isn't likely certainly for health care workers.
Well, I myself experienced "forced" vaccination for many years for the influenza vaccine and no less than Dr. Fauci has said he foresees the same with Covid. So I'm not sure where you feel this isn't likely certainly for health care workers.
My manager told us in our morning meeting that the COVID vaccine is “currently not a condition of employment for now like the flu vaccine is”. She placed emphasis on the “for now”.
Specializes in Pediatrics, Pediatric Float, PICU, NICU.
39 minutes ago, myoglobin said:
Well, I myself experienced "forced" vaccination for many years for the influenza vaccine and no less than Dr. Fauci has said he foresees the same with Covid. So I'm not sure where you feel this isn't likely certainly for health care workers.
You were NOT forced to take the influenza vaccine. It was a requirement by your employer (and most employers have many other requirements as well, not just including vaccines), and you CHOSE to take the vaccine to stay with that employer. Period.
You were NOT forced to take the influenza vaccine. It was a requirement by your employer (and most employers have many other requirements as well, not just including vaccines), and you CHOSE to take the vaccine to stay with that employer. Period.
Again, we disagree as to what being forced means. At the time I had less than two weeks of "savings" and if you said "cut your toe off" or lose your job then I would have grabbed a knife and proceeded to slice. Most people are completely dependent on their jobs (which are hard to get even for nurses) and losing their jobs is tantamount to losing their homes, insurance, ability to eat or pay their student loans (and in Florida if you default on your student loans they take your RN license). Even in China you are not forced to do anything. It's just that if you choose not to (and your Sesame credit falls too low) you cannot obtain good employment go to better schools, obtain passports and at some point even using public transport becomes out of bounds. Thus, we disagree as to what is meant by mandatory or forced.
15 minutes ago, JadedCPN said:
You were NOT forced to take the influenza vaccine. It was a requirement by your employer (and most employers have many other requirements as well, not just including vaccines), and you CHOSE to take the vaccine to stay with that employer. Period.
Also the MD's did not have to make this "choice" since they were not employees (with the exception of the intensivists) they were not required to obtain the vaccinations for the flu.
Specializes in NICU, PICU, Transport, L&D, Hospice.
1 hour ago, myoglobin said:
Well, I myself experienced "forced" vaccination for many years for the influenza vaccine and no less than Dr. Fauci has said he foresees the same with Covid. So I'm not sure where you feel this isn't likely certainly for health care workers.
Baloney.
Definition of forced
1: compelled by force or necessity : INVOLUNTARYa forced landing
2: done or produced with effort, exertion, or pressurea forced laugh
1: compelled by force or necessity : INVOLUNTARYa forced landing
2: done or produced with effort, exertion, or pressurea forced laugh
Again, we just disagree on this. Many if not most people feel that a choice that comes at the cost of their job isn't much of a choice. How many women for example were faced with the "choice" of putting up with denigrating language or more hostile acts as a condition of keeping their jobs. I doubt that many of them would have considered it a "choice". Or imagine one of my gay friends who was faced with the "choice" of undergoing "conversion therapy" or dropping out of the college that he attended (granted it was the 90's, but still). We can argue semantics, but I fear of being faced with the "choice" of getting a vaccine that I may (or may not) want or facing loss of my job, license, ability to travel or worse. I do not wish to live in a "tiered" society like China where failure to comply with "pro social" behavior in the eyes of government or private corporations is met with disincentives.
Again, we just disagree on this. Many if not most people feel that a choice that comes at the cost of their job isn't much of a choice. How many women for example were faced with the "choice" of putting up with denigrating language or more hostile acts as a condition of keeping their jobs. I doubt that many of them would have considered it a "choice". Or imagine one of my gay friends who was faced with the "choice" of undergoing "conversion therapy" or dropping out of the college that he attended (granted it was the 90's, but still). We can argue semantics, but I fear of being faced with the "choice" of getting a vaccine that I may (or may not) want or facing loss of my job, license, ability to travel or worse. I do not wish to live in a "tiered" society like China where failure to comply with "pro social" behavior in the eyes of government or private corporations is met with disincentives.
I don’t think while the vaccine is still not approved by FDA and only released by emergency circumstances it should be mandatory for anyone as a requirement of employment. And down the road, just like flu vaccine, I would imagine, some facilities would make it a requirement of employment while others would not. At my hospital it was a condition of employment that if you declined the flu vaccine than you must wear a surgical mask all of flu season. Now that we are all wearing surgical masks all the time, it’s hard to see any need for further action if you decline. Also, many unions are implementing proposals and policies that protect workers rights to choose vaccination or not, (my hospital) and major cities are extremely short staffed (my hospital) so some facilities will likely make it a point to keep vaccination optional in an effort to retain and recruit adequate staff without having to pay for that incentive. Where there is a demand, someone will supply.
I believe in PPE being just as effective as a vaccine, I have worked almost 1,000 hours this year on a covid ICU unit with strict PPE protocols and have seen the infection transmission well controlled, extremely rare cases of employees contracting covid. It appears in other unpredictable environments that are not treating everyone as a rule out, such as the ED or facilities with less strict PPE protocols such as nursing homes employees are having issues with infection contraction and transmission. The issue is likely related to the PPE protocols, everyone should be treated like a rule out regardless of symptoms in terms or PPE. Mask, face shield, gown, gloves washing hands for 2 minutes in and out of every room no matter what. If you facility doesn’t allow and enforce this, find another facility, this is unsafe, vaccination or not.
However, If you work for a company who adequately supplies and enforces PPE protocols and you adhere to them, you and your patients are safe, vaccination or not. I know there are a lot of people, healthcare workers included who don’t believe in masks ? but I know as a frontline worker adhering to strict PPE all year, firsthand knowledge and proof for myself that if PPE policies are properly implemented, the safety of yourself and those around you is almost guaranteed, much like a vaccination.
The tricky and risky part is actually outside of the hospital. It is the responsibility for those who don’t feel comfortable getting vaccinated by non fda approved emergently released new vaccinations, as well as those who are vaccinated, to continue to social distance, avoid large gathering, wash your hands, wear a mask when appropriate, etc.
I would be in favor of offering something like student loan debt forgiveness tied to being vaccinated. That at least is an "incentive" based solution rather than punitive.
D-dimer is very non specific and many things that will elevate inflammation will increase D-dimer levels. What I am saying is that 100's of thousands of people will die from MI's, strokes, and cancer every year. With Covid "most" people are going to get this disease at some point and it will be a co-occurring condition in some of the cases. In any case it sounds like you believe that every case where someone is hospitalized or dies with Covid is currently counted. At least that is a starting point for discussion. There is no current distinction being made (you think that is appropriate, and I believe it to be problematic).
D-dimer is non-specific to PE which is often why we run D-dimer levels, but it is specific to increased thromboembolic activity.
It's certainly not impossible that someone may just happen to die of something else despite appearing to have died from a known Covid-caused pathology, although it's not possible that this would produce a statistically significant reduction in the number of deaths due to Covid.
If someone's parachute fails to open and it just so happens that they experience a spontaneous, fatal ICH in mid free-fall unrelated to their impending collision with the earth then it would be correct to say they didn't actually die because their parachute failed to open, that's reasonable. You're proposing that because this is a possibility, jumping out of an airplane without a parachute is not as dangerous as we think it is, which of course, is absurd.
toomuchbaloney
16,033 Posts
Are there any specific words that I used which made you feel like I was silencing you? Which words? That's certainly not my intention. My intention is to correct your errors, seek clarification on your thinking, question your logic, and provide credible information about covid and these vaccines and their place in our pandemic response.
I thought we were having a discussion.
As your average health professional, I'm going to convince them using accurate and credible scientific information which is not political and is uninfluenced by the imaginings or analysis of fringe crackpots and quacks.