Heated debate between Civilian ED RN and FMF Hospital Corpsman.

[testing109]

before i begin this thread, i'd like to take a moment for those that may not be familiar with what a fmf hospital corpsman is exactly, so that there is a better understanding of my frustration:

for seven boot camp-like, rifle-toting, blister-breaking weeks down south at camp lejeune, n.c., the navy and marine corps team up at field medical service school (fmss) east to mold standard navy-issue corpsmen into sailors good enough for the fleet marine force (fmf). the good ones will earn the marines' respect. the great ones earn the title, "doc." there are corpsmen and then there are 'docs.' a doc is someone you can count on. he's someone in your platoon that when something happens to one of our fellow marines, you can call on him and not have to worry. he's your buddy, a comrade in arms, a person who you count on to cover your back, to lay down fire, dig fighting holes or do whatever marines are doing. that's who a doc is. one of the first things a good fmf corpsman learns is that the very last thing he's worried about is himself. in combat it goes through your mind, 'ok, there's a guy that got shot, i can stay here and i'll be safe and if i do, that marine's probably going to die. having the self-confidence needed by a successful battlefield corpsman can grow and many of the scenarios the medical and marine corps advisors put their students through are centered on precisely that--building confidence in the sailors' knowledge and their abilities. the fmf corpsman are taught what the marine corps will demand of them from the very first day with boot camp-style inspections, relentless physical fitness training and unyielding tolerances for marine corps discipline, all the while being tested academically both in the classroom and in the field. being book- or street-smart alone isn't enough to make it as an fmf corpsman. you have to be both because being with marines means always thinking outside the box, way outside the box. navy corpsmen are one of the most combat decorated rating in the navy, and most of those medals were earned by corpsmen serving with their marines. it's a glory only a select few dare to chase. to become an fmf corpsman stems from a reputation the marine corps has for expecting a lot more responsibility from its junior personnel, especially their corpsmen and it's a character trait fmss instructors look for on the very first day of school. going greenside, fmf corpsman will have a lot more people depending on them to know what they have to do, and they will have the opportunity to do it. by serving with the marine corps they will learn more about what a corpsman ought to be sooner rather than later. as an fmf corpsman you have an immense amount of responsibility sometimes more than you really want. you have a group of marines whose medical care is assigned to you--just you. you are in charge of everything that happeneds to them and their medical records are your responsibility. fmf corpsman are in charge of making sure their marine's immunizations are up to date as well. if they get hurt you have to fix them, and if i get hurt they have to fix me. you're never going to be a leader of a group of individuals in a hospital as an e-2, but in the marine corps, when it comes to medical care for the marines, you are. and that's the most rewarding thing there is, to take a group of people like that into combat and bring them back alive. so in conclusion, the duties of a fmf hospital corpsman consist of and are not limited to:

assisting in prevention and treatment of disease and injuries;

caring for sick and injured;

administering immunization programs;

rendering emergency medical treatment;

instructing sailors and marines in first aid, self aid and personal hygiene procedures;

transporting the sick and injured;

conducting preliminary [color=#366388]physical examinations;

performing medical administrative, supply and accounting procedures;

maintaining treatment records and reports;

supervising shipboard and field environmental sanitation and [color=#366388]preventive medicine programs;

supervising air, water, food and habitability standards;

performing clinical laboratory tests and operating sophisticated laboratory equipment;

taking and processing x-rays and operating x-ray equipment;

filling prescriptions, maintaining pharmacy stock;

serving as operating room technicians for general and specialized surgery;

performing [color=#366388]preventive maintenance and repairs on biomedical equipment.

so, with all of that being said, i would like to share a situation that i encountered. today, i was informed by a 1 year civilian rn that as a fmf corpsman, i was inferior to her due to the fact that she was a rn and i was merely a military medic. further more she voiced her opinion (which i found quite undeducated) that due to her "formal" class room education, she was superior to me because i am not licensed and she is, stating that my level of education and skill is only that of a basic cna.

i found this to not only show her ignorance, but her extreme disrespect for our military service members who work in the medical field and put their lives on the line every day, and seeing how i am a fmf hospital corpsman and i am referred to as "doc" by my fellow marines, i took this quite personal. no i did not sit through your everyday civilian rn training and nor do i put myself above the ones that have, but by no means do i feel like my level of skill is in anyway inferior to a difference in training.

so, this is what i am asking the current and/or prior corpsman out there and the current and/or prior ed rn's out there: is this the attitude that is to be expected once i enter into the civilian world? is there really no respect for the men and women who serve our country performing the same level of critical care that you do, only we put our lives on the line in a time of combat to get the job done and take care of the ones that have put their lives on the line for your freedom?

i will close with a statement i heard once from a fellow service member: "to all of the civilians out there they may not respect or understand your countries military and what we are fighting for, late at night when you lay your head on your pillow and you wrap up in that warm blanket and go to sleep in peace, just remember, that blanket is called freedom which is provided for you by the same people you insult"

[Murse406]

I received 18 Cr hours at a well respected community college for my medic training to include 5 of those for the A&P combined course, the rest EMS credits. I was irritated because most nursing programs required A&P separately for 8 hours of Cr. So I jumped through their hoops, took them separately, and am now very glad I did. Had I not, I would not have been prepared for future course work no matter how much I thought I knew at the time. As a lot have previously said, you don't know what you don't know until you get there. Others and I will also tell you, school is just the tip of the ice berg. If you want to be an RN, go to school for it. Your previous experience will serve you well, but it is just that, previous experience.

[ellies]

To be a nurse in each state requires a amount of minimum education. That is usually a minimum of an ADN or two year degree. You can list all the "skills" you want but the minimum requirement for a license as an RN still stands. The same for all the other professions. Respiratory Therapists now required a minimum of a two year degree when before military trained RTs could challenge the 1 year tech certificifcation for civilian employment. Education vs training vs skills all have different meanings. Monkeys can be trained at doing "skills". In the civilian world, "skills" are not covered by a blanket military budget but must be justified by education and worth. Anybody can be trained to do a few skills but do they may not have the eduation to back them up and justifiy a care plan for the long haul.

Many professions overlap in skills and education. PT has 3x more education requirements than nurses and with the same prerequisites. They also have a long list of "skills". The same for RT, OT and SLP. However at no time do they want to say they are "RNs" nor do they want to even say they are just like "RNs". They respect the individual license process that is necessary for recognition in the civilian reimbursement process. They also have a respect for the differences in the professions no matter how big or small they might be. If you have never been though a nursing degree, you can not speak for what the differences are. You are just comparing "skills" which many different professions can say "I can do that" but they also know the rest of the story and that they are NOT nurses or RTs or NPs or PAs or MDs.

If nurses make exceptions for all of those who have technical skills but lack in eduation, they are right back at 1970. LPNs had all the skills as well. Yet, they knew they had to advance their education to meet the RN requirement in some states to stay employed.

Thank you for your military service but now in the states you must conform to the regulations of each state for licensure. You will be dealing with geriatric patients who need a care plan for the long haul and not 20 year old soldiers.

Do the requirements for the RN or whatever field you decide to enter.

That is a great answer, but what I would like to see is an educational format for the military all around to help medics, corpsman and such to achieve the theory, practice, and preparation to prepare for the NCLEX. The Army has an LPN program, but the navy and the air force don't. I just think there needs to be an educational format towards the lvn level. Still I get the license part, it is really the educational part that may need work on the government end to prepare these guys for civilian sector. Just in case anyone wanted to know, I am an lvn going to rn who's just trying to help others get as far as I have.

[ellies]

You can look at having some of your military experience (Basic, AIT and possibly PLDC & BNOC) transferred into college credit. I did and received about 15 credits; however, it did not help me complete nursing school. You will still have to take pre-requisite educational courses such as anatomy and physiology, English, psychology, microbiology and so on. The limited amount of course work you did in subjects such as A&P in the military will most likely not transfer over into civilian credits.

It is easy to assume that you know more that you really do because you are allowed to perform many skills. Unfortunately, learning about the evidence, the how and the why of said skills should be an enlightening experience. Even among medical professions that have similar pre-requisite education, much of the knowledge is specific to that profession. For example, I thought I was more than a match for the respiratory therapy programme because of my super sexy skilled nursing education. Unfortunately, I realised that it was not necessarily the case during a fluid dynamics course where I was struggling through calculating Reynolds number while attempting to differentiate laminar from turbulent gas flow.

Go through school, try to avoid shortcuts and attempt to be humble. You will come out much better off regardless of your choice of careers. Unfortunately, I have a little streak of arrogance at times and end up suffering because of this flaw.

I like you post but I am looking for a program that will help folks while they are still in, and maybe the military is already working to that end, but I don't think so.

[steelydanfan]

It would be so nice if we did not have to resort to infighting and territory claiming. But, I must say this: If you don't walk into an ER planning to be collaborative instead of know-it-all with the nurse who greets your pt., you will likely suffer the same fate as the OP. I can't BEGIN to count the times a EMT has come in and not only given me the pt's status, but the diagnosis and recommendations for treatment before we even got the pt. into a bed.

And every suggestion I made for them to "cool it" was met by a smirk.

You guys and gals are good, but let's hold off on the diagnoses, it's not our jobs. That responsibilty rests with someone who has an M.D. behind his name.

If he's an idiot, yeah, we WILL take action. But field medicine isn't MEDICINE as defined by standards. Just because you know how to put in an art line does'nt make you the expert in knowing when one is indicated.

[badphish]

As a 20 year Retired Army Medic you don't owe me a damn thing. I volunteered for the Army. I got to do a lot of real cool things that Nurses, and Paramedics would never get to do. I went to Paramedic School to better equate my Military experience into a Civilian Job description. I really don't like it when my fellow vets think the world owes them something, when they volunteered for that Job. unless you enlisted before the 80s, no one made you join.

I think Respect is something you Earn. And if you are really the Bad Ass Doc you want me to think You are, who cares what some civie said to you. Maybe you should carry all your plaques, medals, badges, certificates with you so everyone can see how awesum u r.

And yes I'm a Combat Vet.

You wanna Prove Something Get Your RN, save some lives in the constraints of being a Licensed Civilian, with all the crap that comes with it.

peace out,

B

[Murse406]

@ badphish

I couldn't have said it better myself. I think that is what I had been trying to say all along.

[traumaRN1908, RN]

I agree with Lunah, this is a common notion. I struggled with it when I got out of the military.

As a Doc, I knew if "A" happened then I should do "C". In many cases I really didn't know the *rationale* as to why I was doing it. An example was if there was a blunt trauma to the head and the ICP increased to X amount- I was told to give mannitol as a pre-specified amount and complete neuro checks. I wasn't exactly clear as to what mannitol was or or the the exact A&P of it all.

I don't think that one is better or more educated than the other. I have worked with many Outstanding Doc's and some dingy RN's and visa versa. Both groups fundamentally approach pt care differently..

Daisy

First, anyone who is rude to a coworker, and belittles them for different levels of education, is probably suffering from some insecurities somewhere and feels the need to make themselves better by trying to make others feels bad.

Daisy wins the quote of the day for her post. Medics are taught differently, than nurses. They frequently get the "what to do when" and nurses get the "how and why" in addition. You run into ignorance everywhere...

[bintherestillernin]

As a fellow FMF "Doc" let me first start by saying take a breath and count to 10.

You wll run into this from time to time through out your life. The role a Doc plays cannot be compared with the role of an RN. Totally two different things, not better nor worse than the other. Your training as a Corpsman will only help you in any medical setting in your future but your current attitude will only hurt you. I am currently a RN who had training as an EMT-P and LPN and it all started from my training as a Navy Corpsman and FMF Doc. Trust me, employers love the background and it has helped in the ER that I work. It also has increased the hourly wage.

Don't take youself too seriously and stay humble or you too could one day end up giving someone the attitude that has bothered you so.

Good luck and thanks for serving.

FMF Doc 89-93.

[Kooky Korky, BSN, RN]

Really MULAN, is that right, because today I witnessed at least 3 different HIPAA violations alone from a few RN's. Man I guess this is what is to be expected from the RN community.

RN = SUPERIOR and MILITARY = UNTRAINED AND UNDEDUCATED.

I guess this orange is going to take it's undeducated and untrained self back to where it belongs, and thats on the front line fighting for your freedom. Stay warm in your blanket guys!

Dude, as much as we appreciate you going to the front, no one is forcing you to do that. Stop condemning those of us who aren't going. That is, apparently, your calling. It is not necessarily everyone else's.

The point we are all trying to make is that, for legal reasons, you are simply not allowed to do in civilian settings what you were allowed to do in the military. No one is thinking you are inferior to civilian nurses or doctors. The different settings are governed by different laws, that's all.

[mmutk, BSN, RN, EMT-I]

I am as well sorry to hear of your bad experience. I being from the pre-hospital field (although not combat in arms) also understand the statement that most RNs feel threatned by a medic/RN's existance. Don't let it get too you, there ARE those who do respect you and you will find them along the way.

Good luck.

[GM2RN]

I am as well sorry to hear of your bad experience. I being from the pre-hospital field (although not combat in arms) also understand the statement that most RNs feel threatned by a medic/RN's existance. Don't let it get too you, there ARE those who do respect you and you will find them along the way.

Good luck.

threatened?

[MassED, BSN, RN]

ok, first off I am prior military - am family of military, married military.... so here goes.

Yes, the civilian world is a rude awakening for prior service. The respect is not the same, as well as the comraderie. You are not what you think you are in the civilian world. No one will call you doc. No one in the civilian world can understand what you went through in the military world, so if you hold no expectations, then you won't be disappointed. If you take and pass the NCLEX, then you are the same as civilian RN's, otherwise I wouldn't engage in any debate with a civilian RN. Why would you?

I have personal experience with military medics - it's an isolated world. When you have grown up around military medicine and then in the civilian world you SEE the real difference, you will then understand. It is too vast to get into - and it would need its own thread.

Don't go touting about your prior military, no one appreciates it as much as you would appreciate a civilian nurse touting his or her skills and how much better they perceive themselves to be. No one on either side will gain respect for you should you do that. You know what you have, you know what you can do. No one can walk in your shoes, just as you can't walk in theirs. It's an experience unto itself, and like I wrote, no one can really understand your experience. Why have that debate with someone who could never understand what you have been through? Ignorance and a lack of maturity is what defines one who must speak of how great they are, why not let actions speak louder?

By the way, my overall impression is that you're allowing your pride to be injured here. It's not your JOB that you take issue with in this debate with this nurse, it would appear you're confusing military pride with your job in this heated battle. It's not the same. You should try to separate those two. Your job is one thing, your pride in your country is another.