Heated debate between Civilian ED RN and FMF Hospital Corpsman.

Published

:madface: before i begin this thread, i'd like to take a moment for those that may not be familiar with what a fmf hospital corpsman is exactly, so that there is a better understanding of my frustration:

for seven boot camp-like, rifle-toting, blister-breaking weeks down south at camp lejeune, n.c., the navy and marine corps team up at field medical service school (fmss) east to mold standard navy-issue corpsmen into sailors good enough for the fleet marine force (fmf). the good ones will earn the marines' respect. the great ones earn the title, "doc." there are corpsmen and then there are 'docs.' a doc is someone you can count on. he's someone in your platoon that when something happens to one of our fellow marines, you can call on him and not have to worry. he's your buddy, a comrade in arms, a person who you count on to cover your back, to lay down fire, dig fighting holes or do whatever marines are doing. that's who a doc is. one of the first things a good fmf corpsman learns is that the very last thing he's worried about is himself. in combat it goes through your mind, 'ok, there's a guy that got shot, i can stay here and i'll be safe and if i do, that marine's probably going to die. having the self-confidence needed by a successful battlefield corpsman can grow and many of the scenarios the medical and marine corps advisors put their students through are centered on precisely that--building confidence in the sailors' knowledge and their abilities. the fmf corpsman are taught what the marine corps will demand of them from the very first day with boot camp-style inspections, relentless physical fitness training and unyielding tolerances for marine corps discipline, all the while being tested academically both in the classroom and in the field. being book- or street-smart alone isn't enough to make it as an fmf corpsman. you have to be both because being with marines means always thinking outside the box, way outside the box. navy corpsmen are one of the most combat decorated rating in the navy, and most of those medals were earned by corpsmen serving with their marines. it's a glory only a select few dare to chase. to become an fmf corpsman stems from a reputation the marine corps has for expecting a lot more responsibility from its junior personnel, especially their corpsmen and it's a character trait fmss instructors look for on the very first day of school. going greenside, fmf corpsman will have a lot more people depending on them to know what they have to do, and they will have the opportunity to do it. by serving with the marine corps they will learn more about what a corpsman ought to be sooner rather than later. as an fmf corpsman you have an immense amount of responsibility sometimes more than you really want. you have a group of marines whose medical care is assigned to you--just you. you are in charge of everything that happeneds to them and their medical records are your responsibility. fmf corpsman are in charge of making sure their marine's immunizations are up to date as well. if they get hurt you have to fix them, and if i get hurt they have to fix me. you're never going to be a leader of a group of individuals in a hospital as an e-2, but in the marine corps, when it comes to medical care for the marines, you are. and that's the most rewarding thing there is, to take a group of people like that into combat and bring them back alive. so in conclusion, the duties of a fmf hospital corpsman consist of and are not limited to:

assisting in prevention and treatment of disease and injuries;

caring for sick and injured;

administering immunization programs;

rendering emergency medical treatment;

instructing sailors and marines in first aid, self aid and personal hygiene procedures;

transporting the sick and injured;

conducting preliminary [color=#366388]physical examinations;

performing medical administrative, supply and accounting procedures;

maintaining treatment records and reports;

supervising shipboard and field environmental sanitation and [color=#366388]preventive medicine programs;

supervising air, water, food and habitability standards;

performing clinical laboratory tests and operating sophisticated laboratory equipment;

taking and processing x-rays and operating x-ray equipment;

filling prescriptions, maintaining pharmacy stock;

serving as operating room technicians for general and specialized surgery;

performing [color=#366388]preventive maintenance and repairs on biomedical equipment.

so, with all of that being said, i would like to share a situation that i encountered. today, i was informed by a 1 year civilian rn that as a fmf corpsman, i was inferior to her due to the fact that she was a rn and i was merely a military medic. further more she voiced her opinion (which i found quite undeducated) that due to her "formal" class room education, she was superior to me because i am not licensed and she is, stating that my level of education and skill is only that of a basic cna.

i found this to not only show her ignorance, but her extreme disrespect for our military service members who work in the medical field and put their lives on the line every day, and seeing how i am a fmf hospital corpsman and i am referred to as "doc" by my fellow marines, i took this quite personal. no i did not sit through your everyday civilian rn training and nor do i put myself above the ones that have, but by no means do i feel like my level of skill is in anyway inferior to a difference in training.

so, this is what i am asking the current and/or prior corpsman out there and the current and/or prior ed rn's out there: is this the attitude that is to be expected once i enter into the civilian world? is there really no respect for the men and women who serve our country performing the same level of critical care that you do, only we put our lives on the line in a time of combat to get the job done and take care of the ones that have put their lives on the line for your freedom?

i will close with a statement i heard once from a fellow service member: "to all of the civilians out there they may not respect or understand your countries military and what we are fighting for, late at night when you lay your head on your pillow and you wrap up in that warm blanket and go to sleep in peace, just remember, that blanket is called freedom which is provided for you by the same people you insult"

Specializes in Emergency & Trauma/Adult ICU.

fmfdevildperry - Thank you for your service.

How unfortunate that what I am picturing should have been a brief, pre-emplyoment, let's-take-a-tour-of-the-unit-and-introduce-you-to-some-people kind of thing somehow degenerated into that conversation. That kind of dressing-down indicates poor judgement, unprofessionalism, and insecurity. Some people are so insecure about their own value that they are unable to take a "let's see what this person can do" attitude and instead see a new person as a threat who has to be squashed into limits so as not to threaten their own perceived place in the pecking order.

You met a bad apple, as it were. It's no reflection on you. Carry on.

And welcome to allnurses.com. :)

Specializes in ED.

First off as others have said, thank you for your service. Secondly, I think it's very unfortunate that you have found yourself in this position. I wonder to myself how this conversation came about? Some RNs (as well as many other professionals out there) are very competitive and this can cause problems between what should be "family members". When it comes down to it, everyone brings something different to the table and everyone is valuable in their own way. If we focused half as much about putting our qualities and strengths together vs worrying about what letters follow a persons name, our patients would be so much better off! It is embarrassing for me as a nurse that you have been treated so poorly by merely walking through the door as your story depicts.

Specializes in ED staff.

Being a nurse and being a military medic definitely don't compare... it's like oranges and apples. You do things everday that I will never do in a lifetime and I do things that you can't do because I have a license and you don't. That being said, you have my utmost respect. Anyone in the military, I support you guys (and gals) 100%.

I worked for 15 years with a nurse who was a medic in Viet Nam. He knew so much more than I did because he was a medic. He had much more experience with trauma and because of being in battle nothing rattled him in the ER.

Don't worry about what the nurse told you. You know what you can do, she doesn't. Your work doesn't compare to that of a CNA either. If I were going to compare you to any civilian job it would be paramedic. I can tell by the way you write that you are extremely intelligent, pay no mind to ignorant nurses. :)

Specializes in Recovery (PACU)-11 yrs, General-13yrs.

Thankyou for your insight into a medic's world, sometimes we are not always aware of what happens elsewhere and need to be reminded of other points of view.

But I have a few other points of view to add to the mix-as the RN was a first year she was probably intimidated by your level of knowledge, and especially when young and new, it can be hard to figure out to behave in those situations, and tact does not always come easly to everyone, (me included, and I am neither young nor new)

The other is that in your list of duties you included

"performing clinical laboratory tests and operating sophisticated laboratory equipment;

taking and processing X-rays and operating X-ray equipment;

filling prescriptions, maintaining pharmacy stock; "

do you then have conflicts with pathologists, radiographers and pharmacists?

Specializes in 1 PACU,11 ICU, 9 ER.
Really MULAN, is that right, because today I witnessed at least 3 different HIPAA violations alone from a few RN's. Man I guess this is what is to be expected from the RN community.

RN = SUPERIOR and MILITARY = UNTRAINED AND UNDEDUCATED.

I guess this orange is going to take it's undeducated and untrained self back to where it belongs, and thats on the front line fighting for your freedom. Stay warm in your blanket guys!

I have not served in the military but spent some time working as a contractor on a military base and it gave me a new appreciation for what the difference was between military and civilian health care.

I respect your service to our country but I feel you are being somewhat judgemental based on one negative encounter.

Corpsman obviously have a great deal of training in their field, RN's have training with a different emphasis. Sometimes skills will overlap, sometimes not. It does not mean one is better that the other.

I have to agree with one or 2 or the previous posters that if you go to work in the civilian sector with this much hate and anger you are going to have a hard time with fellow RNs.

GREETINGS, FROM SAN DIEGO!

FIRST OF ALL, LET ME APPLAUD YOU for sharing your experience(s) and thoughts publicly (if you call posting them in a 'registered-user-only blog "public..).

I *TOTALLY* understand EXACTLY where you are coming from. Each and every moment you experienced, I have had the EXACT experience...not in one state, but in several that I have lived throughout the States. I too, am an FMF Corpsman;I retired from the US Navy as an HMCS after 22 yrs. w/ 2nd MarDiv Camp Lejeune . Went into Bootcamp (Orlando) 1 month after graduating High School; NTC Great Lakes for Hospital Corps School afterwards.

I graduated #1 in my class (79020) in "Corps School," and instead of getting ANY of my desired (plush) choices of duty stations (remember the "DREAM SHEET??"), I ended up with orders to "2nd Marine Division, Fleet Marine Force, Camp Lejeune, North Carolina." DAMN thing is...I am FROM Jacksonville, NC! Hell, the main gate to Lejeune is ONLY 6 miles from my house, and 7 miles from my High School! Holy Crap! To make matters worse...My father retired as MGySgt (E9) USMC after 35 yrs., my mother got out as SSgt after ten yrs. Welcome to **MY** misery.

I soon found out that as much as I wanted to 'escape' from "The land of the Jarheads," I came to realize that my upbringing in a Marine Corps Family; having (literally) an 'insider's perspective' of Marine Corps life was what brought me closer to my (Grunt) Marine brothers and sisters. That being said, I found it only 'natural,' or 'second nature' when I CHOSE to adapt to the Marine Corps Regulations and wear the Marine Corps Uniform.

Not only did I wear the Marine Corps uniform with pride, I *FELT* proud that I was one of 'The few, The Proud..." How quickly I was able to adapt myself as a field (Grunt) Corpsman as we were on one of our MANY 'humps' into the field. I carried my own alice pack, I carried my own EVERYTHING....JUST LIKE the other grunts in front of and next to me as we marched down the dirt trail. To this very day, I still recall being on a "Force March" that was pausing for a 15 minute break, when just as soon as our packs came off our backs, I heard, "Corpsman up!" I knew somebody needed me. Without a complaint, I headed up through the line to find a couple of grunts, their feet exposed, with the most "beautiful" set of blisters a Doc's ever seen. After 'patching them up,' and giving instructions to them and the platoon leader, I went back to my alice pack just in time to hear "Load 'em up.." and we were off again. No rest for me. SO WHAT. I was happy.

Later that day, we ended up in our lovely *playground...* "TLZ (Tactical Landing Zone) Bluebird." It was here that I had an opportunity (and I JUMPED ON IT) to qualify with the TOW, the M-16, and the LAW (Light Anti-tank Weapon). Not bad for a 'squid,' I'd say. As my time with the 6th and 8th Marines (2nd MarDiv) continued, so did my building (lifelong) friendships with my Marine Brothers and Sisters. I recall a few marines approached me (C co. 1/6), and asked if I would be there "Doc" during a competition. Not sure what this was, but said yes anyway..what the heck. Next thing I know, I'm REALLY having fun in the field. Beginning that year and for the next two years, I was the "Doc" for C Co. 1/6 when **WE** participated in the very competitive Marine Corps game of "SUPER SQUAD." Not only was I able to hone my skills as a field Corpsman, I was just as eager and competitive enough to make sure I did absolutely EVERYTHING "MY" Marines did in the field. That being said, I later became an FTL (Fire Team Leader) for our squad and LOVED it.

You know...EVERY YEAR we made it to Quantico for the 'showdown,' as I like to call it. Each time I was there, I absolutely LOVED the second looks I'd get from other marines coming in from units across the country. Standing amongst my 'fellow Marines,' as we met and shook hands with other units who were also participating in the event was made even better when many times I was introduced as "Our Fire Team Leader...Doc Terrell." I was indeed proud of my decision to be in the United States Navy, I was even more proud that I was considered to be 'one of the marines' in our company.

I LITERALLY thought that I had the "best of both worlds..." I was a United States Navy Corpsman, AND I was a FLEET MARINE FORCE Corpsman. Needless to say, I STILL think (I'm pretty sure I'm right about this) that I had the BEST time and the BEST experience as compared to the other Corpsmen there (whose only interest seemed to be to stay in the jeep, walk as little as possible, and GOD FORBID they actually got dirty or WORSE YET...learn to tear down, memorize parts and the order they went back together, clean the weapon and QUALIFY with weapons that (typical) Navy Corpsmen don't touch.). Then again, that's just *MY* opinion. Hmm..."lack of humility on my part? Yup...You got it. I stand by my words, typed or spoken.

Let me advance (quite) a few years: I have indeed 'run into' your situation (almost verbatim) so many times, I've lost count. I can tell you ALL DAY LONG how many times I've surprised a few RN's, PA's AND MD's with advanced training I've (WE AS FMF CORPSMEN) received over the years. For an FMF Corpsman to be 'relinquished' to that of a CNA I find to be insulting to say the least. BUT, as one person responding to your post said (for the most part) not many people (civilians) have a CLUE what FMF Corpsmen do. Keep in mind...I can name a FEW HUNDRED RN's that have NO CLUE what Paramedics do. I actually got into a 'dispute' with an RN of 21 years (under her white cap) when she said " Paramedics have no business handling those type of drugs and doing those procedures...that's what RN's and Doctors are for.." I'll leave *that one* alone.

In 1998, not only did I ATTEND Medical School, I GRADUATED from Medical School AT THE AGE OF FIFTY. I've been a Family Practice Physician for a while now and am (get this...) I'm preparing to go to ODS (Officer Development School) in Rhode Island to begin my NEW career as a Navy Doctor. Let me assure you, Sir...I am only too keenly aware of the stigmatism of being "Only a Medic," or "Only a Corpsman," that comes as a result of nothing more than either miscommunication, or a total lack of knowledge.

Rest assured, I've made sure that EVERY nurse (whether it be an LPN, LVN or RN) that works with me and is aware of my Navy credentials/experience as an FMF Corpsman, understands fully what WE as Fleet Marine Force Corpsmen do, which (again, in my opinion) far surpasses ANY *civilian* nurse. Case in point : FMF Corpsmen and the duties WE'VE performed in Beirut, Baghdad, Tehran, Afganistan...you name it...we're there.

It was my ENTIRE experience as a Fleet Marine Force Corpsman with the 2nd Marine Division, Camp Lejeune, NC...NOT Hospital Corps School, that makes me a BETTER PHYSICIAN and a BETTER MAN to this very day.

E L Terrell, MD

LCDR, MC, USN

SAN DIEGO

While I understand your point, I think we are getting a little pretentious when we say "any" civilian nurse. I have both remote medical and evacuation experience in austere environments OCONUS as a nurse and like to think (personal bias and I admit it) that I could at least hold my own.

Point VERY WELL TAKEN. I've 'amended' my statement to read "MOST (98%) of the Civilian RN's." Hmm.."Pretentious.." perhaps so..then again, I've always been a bit on the "TYPE A" side of the scale...hehe. THANK YOU for reading my post and for your reply!

Specializes in med/surg, ER.

Doc...I have a BSN...you have a PhD in things that matter to keep us all well, safe and to save our behinds. You are welcome in "my" ED anytime. I have a lot to learn from you. Thank you for all you have done and continue to do.

Blessings,

Ann

SanDiegoNavyDoc,

With all due respect sir, this is a nursing forum so what is your point? If you wanted us all to know that your prior experience made you better, mission accomplished. I hope that is the case for all of us. The problem that the OP doesn't seem to understand is that civilian licensure and the privileges it brings does not care what a FMF corpsman knows or doesn't. As an MD, you should understand that if you want to practice as anything alphabetical (RN, MD, EMT-P, etc) you have to jump through those hoops. You could scream and whine all day about how you can do skill x y and z because you were a corpsman, medic, or have a boyscout sewing badge (next we'll have one these complaining that no one at the hospital will let them put in stitches) but the fact of the matter is, legally you cannot. I for sure know that FMF Corpsman are highly skilled, does that mean I would let them use it in my ER? If I want to keep my job I won't. MD's in the nursing forum, interesting.

Good Morning to you and thank you also for your reply.

This will indeed be my last post here, as I do appreciate the fact that this is, as you stated, a NURSING forum.

My mere *presence* here was simply due to the original post made by the Navy Hospital Corpsman that was actually printed out andn handed to me by one of my Nurses here @ Balboa Naval Hospital, knowing that I was a US Navy Hospital Corpsman for 22 years, knowing I would indeed be interested, to say the least. I do also thank you for your 'straight-to-the-point statement that I may have come across as flaunting my 'CV,' which was not my intention.

I do find this topic to be rather intriguing, as this very issue is happening in most places where our Navy Corpsmen, Air Force and Army Medics are coming home in this economy, trying to see where they 'fit' in it all. I would like to point out the fact that the Navy DOES have a program that allows FMF Corpsmen to challenge the LPN-level nursing exam in Illinois, and same here in California, which in fact DOES open many Nursing career doors and opportunities to advance to that of an RN. Other than that, I DO strongly feel the Navy in general should do more to make the transition from Hospital Corpsman more 'seamless' into the civilian market. The bottom line: we ALL here, whether you are a CNA, LVN, LPN, RN or Hospital Corpsman...the PATIENT ALWAYS comes first and foremost. We are, after all, here for them, uniform, military rank or not.

Thank you for having a professional demeanor in this room...so much more refreshing as compared to *other* posts I've seen or heard of in other venues.

On a PERSONAL NOTE: I might add that i will be the first one to publicly recognize that it is our NURSES that "run" the hospital. The NURSES are the ones that have daily, one-on-one contact with the patient. The NURSES are the ones that come to their aid in the middle of the night while we, as a Physician, Resident or Intern is sleeping in the 'on call' room, or stretched out on a gurney in a dark corner somewhere. It was a NURSE (actually several nurses) that TAUGHT ME how to NOT KILL MY PATIENT over and over again as a new Med Student and again as an Intern. That appreciation and RESPECT for Nurses is one that I shall NEVER LOSE.

Cheers,

E Terrell, MD

LCDR, MC, USN

Specializes in EMS, ED, Trauma, CEN, CPEN, TCRN.

Non-nurses are absolutely welcome here. There are MDs, PAs, paramedics, and many other types of healthcare providers frequent our forums, as well as people who aren't in healthcare at all. So no need to vanish. :)

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