Heated debate between Civilian ED RN and FMF Hospital Corpsman.

[testing109]

before i begin this thread, i'd like to take a moment for those that may not be familiar with what a fmf hospital corpsman is exactly, so that there is a better understanding of my frustration:

for seven boot camp-like, rifle-toting, blister-breaking weeks down south at camp lejeune, n.c., the navy and marine corps team up at field medical service school (fmss) east to mold standard navy-issue corpsmen into sailors good enough for the fleet marine force (fmf). the good ones will earn the marines' respect. the great ones earn the title, "doc." there are corpsmen and then there are 'docs.' a doc is someone you can count on. he's someone in your platoon that when something happens to one of our fellow marines, you can call on him and not have to worry. he's your buddy, a comrade in arms, a person who you count on to cover your back, to lay down fire, dig fighting holes or do whatever marines are doing. that's who a doc is. one of the first things a good fmf corpsman learns is that the very last thing he's worried about is himself. in combat it goes through your mind, 'ok, there's a guy that got shot, i can stay here and i'll be safe and if i do, that marine's probably going to die. having the self-confidence needed by a successful battlefield corpsman can grow and many of the scenarios the medical and marine corps advisors put their students through are centered on precisely that--building confidence in the sailors' knowledge and their abilities. the fmf corpsman are taught what the marine corps will demand of them from the very first day with boot camp-style inspections, relentless physical fitness training and unyielding tolerances for marine corps discipline, all the while being tested academically both in the classroom and in the field. being book- or street-smart alone isn't enough to make it as an fmf corpsman. you have to be both because being with marines means always thinking outside the box, way outside the box. navy corpsmen are one of the most combat decorated rating in the navy, and most of those medals were earned by corpsmen serving with their marines. it's a glory only a select few dare to chase. to become an fmf corpsman stems from a reputation the marine corps has for expecting a lot more responsibility from its junior personnel, especially their corpsmen and it's a character trait fmss instructors look for on the very first day of school. going greenside, fmf corpsman will have a lot more people depending on them to know what they have to do, and they will have the opportunity to do it. by serving with the marine corps they will learn more about what a corpsman ought to be sooner rather than later. as an fmf corpsman you have an immense amount of responsibility sometimes more than you really want. you have a group of marines whose medical care is assigned to you--just you. you are in charge of everything that happeneds to them and their medical records are your responsibility. fmf corpsman are in charge of making sure their marine's immunizations are up to date as well. if they get hurt you have to fix them, and if i get hurt they have to fix me. you're never going to be a leader of a group of individuals in a hospital as an e-2, but in the marine corps, when it comes to medical care for the marines, you are. and that's the most rewarding thing there is, to take a group of people like that into combat and bring them back alive. so in conclusion, the duties of a fmf hospital corpsman consist of and are not limited to:

assisting in prevention and treatment of disease and injuries;

caring for sick and injured;

administering immunization programs;

rendering emergency medical treatment;

instructing sailors and marines in first aid, self aid and personal hygiene procedures;

transporting the sick and injured;

conducting preliminary [color=#366388]physical examinations;

performing medical administrative, supply and accounting procedures;

maintaining treatment records and reports;

supervising shipboard and field environmental sanitation and [color=#366388]preventive medicine programs;

supervising air, water, food and habitability standards;

performing clinical laboratory tests and operating sophisticated laboratory equipment;

taking and processing x-rays and operating x-ray equipment;

filling prescriptions, maintaining pharmacy stock;

serving as operating room technicians for general and specialized surgery;

performing [color=#366388]preventive maintenance and repairs on biomedical equipment.

so, with all of that being said, i would like to share a situation that i encountered. today, i was informed by a 1 year civilian rn that as a fmf corpsman, i was inferior to her due to the fact that she was a rn and i was merely a military medic. further more she voiced her opinion (which i found quite undeducated) that due to her "formal" class room education, she was superior to me because i am not licensed and she is, stating that my level of education and skill is only that of a basic cna.

i found this to not only show her ignorance, but her extreme disrespect for our military service members who work in the medical field and put their lives on the line every day, and seeing how i am a fmf hospital corpsman and i am referred to as "doc" by my fellow marines, i took this quite personal. no i did not sit through your everyday civilian rn training and nor do i put myself above the ones that have, but by no means do i feel like my level of skill is in anyway inferior to a difference in training.

so, this is what i am asking the current and/or prior corpsman out there and the current and/or prior ed rn's out there: is this the attitude that is to be expected once i enter into the civilian world? is there really no respect for the men and women who serve our country performing the same level of critical care that you do, only we put our lives on the line in a time of combat to get the job done and take care of the ones that have put their lives on the line for your freedom?

i will close with a statement i heard once from a fellow service member: "to all of the civilians out there they may not respect or understand your countries military and what we are fighting for, late at night when you lay your head on your pillow and you wrap up in that warm blanket and go to sleep in peace, just remember, that blanket is called freedom which is provided for you by the same people you insult"

[retired-603]

I was a US Navy Corpsman that served with the USMC in Viet-Nam 1970 . I returned and used the GI bill to get a BSN RN degree then worked 34 years in the VA Hospital and to this day feel that the Navy medical training is not respected in Civilian life. My nursing degree was only a review of what I had already learned in Navy Corpsman school, but I had to bow to the law of the land that grants and controls all RN's. My advice to all Corpsman today is to enroll in a PA program to better use the Navy training. Today as a RN-BSN I still can not do as many things as I was trained to do in the Navy. It is a fact of life that will make all Navy trained Corpsman mad, but you have to repeat the same training you already have ,to get your RN Degree in Civilian life. Get your RN-BSN and move on with your life !! The best of luck to you Doc.!

[RN Zeke]

AMEN! Spoken with truth, love, honor and respect. We can't change it and must follow the chain of command to get to the place we want and need to be.

[gaelic1of9]

As an FMF "Doc " who served in war time I can feel your frustration at what seems a lack of respect, many RN's could not do what we do....As in any group there are good, bad and as of yet untested. That Nurse's are honored in civilian life as we are in the military is evident and they do not mean more combat for us. You met a person who has no idea of your experience and values degrees over experience...so go get that degree ...as a male nurse , nurse anethetist, or even PA you can make as much or more in money and respect. As to military experience in addition to FMF I ran the enlisted Orthopedic surgical wing at Bethesda Naval Hospital for 12 hours per day when we had an overload of patients X200%. Most of our nurses were great and the one that wasn't was shipped out.

Don't take her comment as an insult..take it as a challenge!!!!!!!

"Doc" Wes

FMF 64-67

[VICEDRN, BSN, RN]

ha ha! I know this is an old thread but I have to post. I know I didn't know what to make of the first medic I met when I was new grad nurse. The medic was employed as tech. I now know they can also function as an EMT with their skill set and get a paramedic with some additional training. However, at this point, whatever skills you got I welcome the assistance with the patient. Even your input about patient's condition is more than welcome. I can't change what the facility rules are or what your paid position is but we can work as a team if you come to me honestly and tell me what you envision doing together as a team.

[olddragger]

I am a USMC vietnam vet whose life was saved by a Navy Corpsman.

On behalf of my RN status I would like to apologize for the person that called you inferior. That person obviously has limited life experience. No RN should ever acknowledge another as being inferior. We all have our own weaknesses and strengths and as RN's we should appreciate that.

[hiddencatRN, BSN, RN]

so go get that degree ...as a male nurse , nurse anethetist, or even PA you can make as much or more in money and respect.

Where does one go to get a "male nurse" degree?

[Lunah, MSN, RN]

Where does one go to get a "male nurse" degree?

To a unimursity! Hahaha.

[PatMac10,RN, RN]

Of course, we didn't witness the whole situation as it happened, so I am posting with regards to the info available from the OP. I agree that the RN the OP was speaking to should not be excused for her rudeness. I agree that respect is an important thing to have from a healthcare team, regardless of your position. However, outside of the military and in the civilian world, respect isn't the priority on many people minds, sadly. Nursing is different than most people imagine, until they are in it, that I agree on.

I am work as a CNA-II in NC and I will graduate from nursing school in 4 months. I've gone to work throughout school and have been treated like I am still a CNA student (by both Nurses and other CNAs) and not "respected" as someone that is about to be a licensed RN in less than half a year. Ive worked with these people for going in 3 years and it still happens. I've learned to take that treatment with stride.

It is apparent that you have valuable knowledge that may be, for lack of a better word, "stifled" on the civilian world. However, the best way to discredit or silence individuals who treat you badly or look down upon you, is to continue on and show them that you can reach their level and much more.

I've certainly lived to see people mouths drop when they realize I'm graduating in 4 months. I was 18 when I started at the hospital I work at. So many people where I'm from talk about going to nursing school or whatever and that's the most that comes of it, talk.

But, I was determined to get what I wanted do that I could do sone amazing things as a nurse. In 4 months I will be a RN and 20 years old. I will have new "respect" battles to fight as a new and young nurse, but the fact that I made it that point will be all the respect I need. I don't expect respect from some people as they are not going to give. I expect respect as an individual and as a participatory member of the healthcare team, in general at least.

So, I would have an adult conversation with the said nurse, right any wrongs. And then go on to provide excellent care and do great things, that will far untrue respect from many more than just that one nurse. We have paramedics, x-ray techs, and nurses, who act in arrogance, they receive little respect, and respect really is a two way street, even though it should be given regardless. I hope everything turns out ok for the OP.

[PatMac10,RN, RN]

I am a USMC vietnam vet whose life was saved by a Navy Corpsman.

On behalf of my RN status I would like to apologize for the person that called you inferior. That person obviously has limited life experience. No RN should ever acknowledge another as being inferior. We all have our own weaknesses and strengths and as RN's we should appreciate that.

Wise words.

[wprivera]

Dear Testing109,

I realize that it has been three years since your last posting, but I felt compelled to contribute my two cents. As a former Navy Corpsman, I worked in the ED at Naval Hospital Camp Lejeune. I later went on to become an FMF Corpsman (EMT/EMTI). As an LVN, I worked in the ED at the Naval Hospital Cherry Point. And as an RN, I worked in several ED's across the country, as a travel nurse. I can readily identify with your frustration at being told that your military training and experience were not valid.

However, a major difference is that civilians are governed by the State's Nursing Practice Act's. These sets of laws serve to protect the public from harm from incompetent nursing providers. When a nurse passes their boards, it is a testament that they know the bare minimum to competently practice in this country. When I worked as a civilian nurse in military hospitals, I was allowed to suture, because the facility was on federal property, and not necessarily subject to the same laws that govern civilian facilities.

Civilian nursing school curriculum's are approved by the State board's of nursing. If the programs have a poor passing rate, they are not allowed to continue to educate nurses. They loose their accreditation. Our military training was enough to care for patients in that active duty patient population. They were relatively young, and healthy, without protracted medical histories and chronic medical conditions that affected multiple organ systems.

Upon transitioning to caring for the general civilian population, I quickly learned that my military education lacked some pretty significant stuff. Specifically, it lacked a foundation in nursing theory, anatomy and physiology, and the ability to evaluate multiple systems, and to anticipate how one systems failure can quickly affect others. Again, it all had to deal with the patient population for which we were trained to treat.

The level of knowledge, and skill, that it takes to manage a 23 year old with a compound fracture is significantly less than the knowledge and skill that it takes to manage a 63 year old patient with an MI, post CABG, on a vent, with multiple chest tubes, on pressors, sedatives, TPN, and an insulin drip.

In closing, I just want to reassure you that the nurse in question was, as you described, tactless in dismissing your military training. I understand how insulted you felt. But, for me, now being an old, experienced, crotchety RN, I can easily understand how she could dismiss your training. I've been on both sides of this fence, and thoroughly understand both points of view.

So, did you continue in health care? Are you still in the military? Please give us an update...

[txERgrl79]

As another said, I realize this is an older post, but wanted to comment. I was an Air Force Medic in my early 20's. After working with a military RN (I called satan lol) I learned and respected her and nursing period, more than I ever had. And I left the AF with confidence in my knowledge. As a civilian ER Tech I worked with amazing people, from day one. BUT, their license in on the line and as others said, civilian and military do not "play" by the same rules. They were aware of my training/skills with IV's, phlebotomy, catheters, and changing a dressing. All that said, I had and EMT/B, NRP, BLS and that was it. With each day there was a "trust", if you will, that was built with all of us. I was never going to do what was note allowed of me, and it wasn't long before that showed in my work. There is always that 1 though, that no matter what, you're scum. Lol. I had one and only one. Surprisingly, I handled her behavior with respect and just did my job. One night I over heard her talking with the charge RN about myself and my performance. (Keep in mind this was a HORRIBLE night...everyone was having CP and needed the works...I was IV's and EKG's!) She went on about another hospital and how those techs worked. I was fuming, I did my job and I knew that. Thankfully so did Charge because he proceeded to tell her a number of things that were not so nice...followed up with our director saying "these techs will make or break your day...period". (I should add there was only 1 tech per shift so some days sucked more lol). She often questioned everything about who I was and why/what I was doing, to other nurses who always responded so great. I had many certs at that point (now nursing student) but never stepped over any lines. I never understood what started this issues, but it didn't matter. Now had this happened as soon as I started my transition into the civilian world, I don't know how I would have reacted. I feel sure that I would have felt the same as you though. I took and still take my job seriously and do not by any means know everything, and I never will, and I'm ok with that, now. It's easy to say ignore those kind of comments, but in reality, it's not that easy. It's like changing into a whole other world and it can be more difficult for some. Thank you for your service and for the choice you made to fight for this country. And remember, we are ALL always learning, even if it's just about one another. Giving people the long list of what our job was means nothing, in a way, to the real world. As you work with them though, and if you perform the way you sound like and with the respect that you want, it will be seen, and trust builds more and more. Then, it's like no other feeling or place in the world to work, IMO. It's a unique job (for ER nurses and techs) with some unique personalities all smashed up...requiring you to trust your fellow coworkers just like you trusted you fellow serviceman.

I hope since your post things are better regarding the civilian aspect...and again, thank you for your service...let that pride you have show through in times like this.

Sent from my iPhone using allnurses.com

[MassED, BSN, RN]

before i begin this thread, i'd like to take a moment for those that may not be familiar with what a fmf hospital corpsman is exactly, so that there is a better understanding of my frustration:

for seven boot camp-like, rifle-toting, blister-breaking weeks down south at camp lejeune, n.c., the navy and marine corps team up at field medical service school (fmss) east to mold standard navy-issue corpsmen into sailors good enough for the fleet marine force (fmf). the good ones will earn the marines' respect. the great ones earn the title, "doc." there are corpsmen and then there are 'docs.' a doc is someone you can count on. he's someone in your platoon that when something happens to one of our fellow marines, you can call on him and not have to worry. he's your buddy, a comrade in arms, a person who you count on to cover your back, to lay down fire, dig fighting holes or do whatever marines are doing. that's who a doc is. one of the first things a good fmf corpsman learns is that the very last thing he's worried about is himself. in combat it goes through your mind, 'ok, there's a guy that got shot, i can stay here and i'll be safe and if i do, that marine's probably going to die. having the self-confidence needed by a successful battlefield corpsman can grow and many of the scenarios the medical and marine corps advisors put their students through are centered on precisely that--building confidence in the sailors' knowledge and their abilities. the fmf corpsman are taught what the marine corps will demand of them from the very first day with boot camp-style inspections, relentless physical fitness training and unyielding tolerances for marine corps discipline, all the while being tested academically both in the classroom and in the field. being book- or street-smart alone isn't enough to make it as an fmf corpsman. you have to be both because being with marines means always thinking outside the box, way outside the box. navy corpsmen are one of the most combat decorated rating in the navy, and most of those medals were earned by corpsmen serving with their marines. it's a glory only a select few dare to chase. to become an fmf corpsman stems from a reputation the marine corps has for expecting a lot more responsibility from its junior personnel, especially their corpsmen and it's a character trait fmss instructors look for on the very first day of school. going greenside, fmf corpsman will have a lot more people depending on them to know what they have to do, and they will have the opportunity to do it. by serving with the marine corps they will learn more about what a corpsman ought to be sooner rather than later. as an fmf corpsman you have an immense amount of responsibility sometimes more than you really want. you have a group of marines whose medical care is assigned to you--just you. you are in charge of everything that happeneds to them and their medical records are your responsibility. fmf corpsman are in charge of making sure their marine's immunizations are up to date as well. if they get hurt you have to fix them, and if i get hurt they have to fix me. you're never going to be a leader of a group of individuals in a hospital as an e-2, but in the marine corps, when it comes to medical care for the marines, you are. and that's the most rewarding thing there is, to take a group of people like that into combat and bring them back alive. so in conclusion, the duties of a fmf hospital corpsman consist of and are not limited to:

assisting in prevention and treatment of disease and injuries;

caring for sick and injured;

administering immunization programs;

rendering emergency medical treatment;

instructing sailors and marines in first aid, self aid and personal hygiene procedures;

transporting the sick and injured;

conducting preliminary [color=#366388]physical examinations;

performing medical administrative, supply and accounting procedures;

maintaining treatment records and reports;

supervising shipboard and field environmental sanitation and [color=#366388]preventive medicine programs;

supervising air, water, food and habitability standards;

performing clinical laboratory tests and operating sophisticated laboratory equipment;

taking and processing x-rays and operating x-ray equipment;

filling prescriptions, maintaining pharmacy stock;

serving as operating room technicians for general and specialized surgery;

performing [color=#366388]preventive maintenance and repairs on biomedical equipment.

so, with all of that being said, i would like to share a situation that i encountered. today, i was informed by a 1 year civilian rn that as a fmf corpsman, i was inferior to her due to the fact that she was a rn and i was merely a military medic. further more she voiced her opinion (which i found quite undeducated) that due to her "formal" class room education, she was superior to me because i am not licensed and she is, stating that my level of education and skill is only that of a basic cna.

i found this to not only show her ignorance, but her extreme disrespect for our military service members who work in the medical field and put their lives on the line every day, and seeing how i am a fmf hospital corpsman and i am referred to as "doc" by my fellow marines, i took this quite personal. no i did not sit through your everyday civilian rn training and nor do i put myself above the ones that have, but by no means do i feel like my level of skill is in anyway inferior to a difference in training.

so, this is what i am asking the current and/or prior corpsman out there and the current and/or prior ed rn's out there: is this the attitude that is to be expected once i enter into the civilian world? is there really no respect for the men and women who serve our country performing the same level of critical care that you do, only we put our lives on the line in a time of combat to get the job done and take care of the ones that have put their lives on the line for your freedom?

i will close with a statement i heard once from a fellow service member: "to all of the civilians out there they may not respect or understand your countries military and what we are fighting for, late at night when you lay your head on your pillow and you wrap up in that warm blanket and go to sleep in peace, just remember, that blanket is called freedom which is provided for you by the same people you insult"

Just as you work with ignorant corpsmen, you will find ignorant RN's. Just roll with it and ignore it.