Heated debate between Civilian ED RN and FMF Hospital Corpsman.

Published

:madface: before i begin this thread, i'd like to take a moment for those that may not be familiar with what a fmf hospital corpsman is exactly, so that there is a better understanding of my frustration:

for seven boot camp-like, rifle-toting, blister-breaking weeks down south at camp lejeune, n.c., the navy and marine corps team up at field medical service school (fmss) east to mold standard navy-issue corpsmen into sailors good enough for the fleet marine force (fmf). the good ones will earn the marines' respect. the great ones earn the title, "doc." there are corpsmen and then there are 'docs.' a doc is someone you can count on. he's someone in your platoon that when something happens to one of our fellow marines, you can call on him and not have to worry. he's your buddy, a comrade in arms, a person who you count on to cover your back, to lay down fire, dig fighting holes or do whatever marines are doing. that's who a doc is. one of the first things a good fmf corpsman learns is that the very last thing he's worried about is himself. in combat it goes through your mind, 'ok, there's a guy that got shot, i can stay here and i'll be safe and if i do, that marine's probably going to die. having the self-confidence needed by a successful battlefield corpsman can grow and many of the scenarios the medical and marine corps advisors put their students through are centered on precisely that--building confidence in the sailors' knowledge and their abilities. the fmf corpsman are taught what the marine corps will demand of them from the very first day with boot camp-style inspections, relentless physical fitness training and unyielding tolerances for marine corps discipline, all the while being tested academically both in the classroom and in the field. being book- or street-smart alone isn't enough to make it as an fmf corpsman. you have to be both because being with marines means always thinking outside the box, way outside the box. navy corpsmen are one of the most combat decorated rating in the navy, and most of those medals were earned by corpsmen serving with their marines. it's a glory only a select few dare to chase. to become an fmf corpsman stems from a reputation the marine corps has for expecting a lot more responsibility from its junior personnel, especially their corpsmen and it's a character trait fmss instructors look for on the very first day of school. going greenside, fmf corpsman will have a lot more people depending on them to know what they have to do, and they will have the opportunity to do it. by serving with the marine corps they will learn more about what a corpsman ought to be sooner rather than later. as an fmf corpsman you have an immense amount of responsibility sometimes more than you really want. you have a group of marines whose medical care is assigned to you--just you. you are in charge of everything that happeneds to them and their medical records are your responsibility. fmf corpsman are in charge of making sure their marine's immunizations are up to date as well. if they get hurt you have to fix them, and if i get hurt they have to fix me. you're never going to be a leader of a group of individuals in a hospital as an e-2, but in the marine corps, when it comes to medical care for the marines, you are. and that's the most rewarding thing there is, to take a group of people like that into combat and bring them back alive. so in conclusion, the duties of a fmf hospital corpsman consist of and are not limited to:

assisting in prevention and treatment of disease and injuries;

caring for sick and injured;

administering immunization programs;

rendering emergency medical treatment;

instructing sailors and marines in first aid, self aid and personal hygiene procedures;

transporting the sick and injured;

conducting preliminary [color=#366388]physical examinations;

performing medical administrative, supply and accounting procedures;

maintaining treatment records and reports;

supervising shipboard and field environmental sanitation and [color=#366388]preventive medicine programs;

supervising air, water, food and habitability standards;

performing clinical laboratory tests and operating sophisticated laboratory equipment;

taking and processing x-rays and operating x-ray equipment;

filling prescriptions, maintaining pharmacy stock;

serving as operating room technicians for general and specialized surgery;

performing [color=#366388]preventive maintenance and repairs on biomedical equipment.

so, with all of that being said, i would like to share a situation that i encountered. today, i was informed by a 1 year civilian rn that as a fmf corpsman, i was inferior to her due to the fact that she was a rn and i was merely a military medic. further more she voiced her opinion (which i found quite undeducated) that due to her "formal" class room education, she was superior to me because i am not licensed and she is, stating that my level of education and skill is only that of a basic cna.

i found this to not only show her ignorance, but her extreme disrespect for our military service members who work in the medical field and put their lives on the line every day, and seeing how i am a fmf hospital corpsman and i am referred to as "doc" by my fellow marines, i took this quite personal. no i did not sit through your everyday civilian rn training and nor do i put myself above the ones that have, but by no means do i feel like my level of skill is in anyway inferior to a difference in training.

so, this is what i am asking the current and/or prior corpsman out there and the current and/or prior ed rn's out there: is this the attitude that is to be expected once i enter into the civilian world? is there really no respect for the men and women who serve our country performing the same level of critical care that you do, only we put our lives on the line in a time of combat to get the job done and take care of the ones that have put their lives on the line for your freedom?

i will close with a statement i heard once from a fellow service member: "to all of the civilians out there they may not respect or understand your countries military and what we are fighting for, late at night when you lay your head on your pillow and you wrap up in that warm blanket and go to sleep in peace, just remember, that blanket is called freedom which is provided for you by the same people you insult"

Specializes in ER.
MULAN, yeah thanks for the heads up on the transition tip, but I think I have that covered ;)

So the motto of the day is "serve our country, fight for our freedom, keep our soldiers alive, but come back to civilian life and you're nothing" I guess I should have just sat in the classroom like a good little boy.

This is what is wrong with our country today.

geez, what a chip. They are TWO different worlds, when you understand that and can get along and INTEGRATE (just as others have to do when moving to a new region and dealing with a new job, that is a rough comparison). You have to try to get along and not breed resentment or you'll have a rough go of it. No one (or very very few) know I was prior service where I work. I use my knowledge in my clinical (sometimes social) situations when dealing with patients, but rarely does it ever come around. Many coworkers like to flaunt their prior military experience in their daily exchanges and it gets old. Get over yourself, I want to say. It's just like flaunting anything else you have or have done. No one REALLY wants to hear it. Just like you are proud of your children but nobody wants to see that picture or video of your cute child over and over. We get it, they get it, we all get it. Just remember that.

And for the record, I think all 18 year olds should serve at least two years in some capacity for our country.

Specializes in ER.
GREETINGS, FROM SAN DIEGO!

FIRST OF ALL, LET ME APPLAUD YOU for sharing your experience(s) and thoughts publicly (if you call posting them in a 'registered-user-only blog "public..).

I *TOTALLY* understand EXACTLY where you are coming from. Each and every moment you experienced, I have had the EXACT experience...not in one state, but in several that I have lived throughout the States. I too, am an FMF Corpsman;I retired from the US Navy as an HMCS after 22 yrs. w/ 2nd MarDiv Camp Lejeune . Went into Bootcamp (Orlando) 1 month after graduating High School; NTC Great Lakes for Hospital Corps School afterwards.

I graduated #1 in my class (79020) in "Corps School," and instead of getting ANY of my desired (plush) choices of duty stations (remember the "DREAM SHEET??"), I ended up with orders to "2nd Marine Division, Fleet Marine Force, Camp Lejeune, North Carolina." DAMN thing is...I am FROM Jacksonville, NC! Hell, the main gate to Lejeune is ONLY 6 miles from my house, and 7 miles from my High School! Holy Crap! To make matters worse...My father retired as MGySgt (E9) USMC after 35 yrs., my mother got out as SSgt after ten yrs. Welcome to **MY** misery.

I soon found out that as much as I wanted to 'escape' from "The land of the Jarheads," I came to realize that my upbringing in a Marine Corps Family; having (literally) an 'insider's perspective' of Marine Corps life was what brought me closer to my (Grunt) Marine brothers and sisters. That being said, I found it only 'natural,' or 'second nature' when I CHOSE to adapt to the Marine Corps Regulations and wear the Marine Corps Uniform.

Not only did I wear the Marine Corps uniform with pride, I *FELT* proud that I was one of 'The few, The Proud..." How quickly I was able to adapt myself as a field (Grunt) Corpsman as we were on one of our MANY 'humps' into the field. I carried my own alice pack, I carried my own EVERYTHING....JUST LIKE the other grunts in front of and next to me as we marched down the dirt trail. To this very day, I still recall being on a "Force March" that was pausing for a 15 minute break, when just as soon as our packs came off our backs, I heard, "Corpsman up!" I knew somebody needed me. Without a complaint, I headed up through the line to find a couple of grunts, their feet exposed, with the most "beautiful" set of blisters a Doc's ever seen. After 'patching them up,' and giving instructions to them and the platoon leader, I went back to my alice pack just in time to hear "Load 'em up.." and we were off again. No rest for me. SO WHAT. I was happy.

Later that day, we ended up in our lovely *playground...* "TLZ (Tactical Landing Zone) Bluebird." It was here that I had an opportunity (and I JUMPED ON IT) to qualify with the TOW, the M-16, and the LAW (Light Anti-tank Weapon). Not bad for a 'squid,' I'd say. As my time with the 6th and 8th Marines (2nd MarDiv) continued, so did my building (lifelong) friendships with my Marine Brothers and Sisters. I recall a few marines approached me (C co. 1/6), and asked if I would be there "Doc" during a competition. Not sure what this was, but said yes anyway..what the heck. Next thing I know, I'm REALLY having fun in the field. Beginning that year and for the next two years, I was the "Doc" for C Co. 1/6 when **WE** participated in the very competitive Marine Corps game of "SUPER SQUAD." Not only was I able to hone my skills as a field Corpsman, I was just as eager and competitive enough to make sure I did absolutely EVERYTHING "MY" Marines did in the field. That being said, I later became an FTL (Fire Team Leader) for our squad and LOVED it.

You know...EVERY YEAR we made it to Quantico for the 'showdown,' as I like to call it. Each time I was there, I absolutely LOVED the second looks I'd get from other marines coming in from units across the country. Standing amongst my 'fellow Marines,' as we met and shook hands with other units who were also participating in the event was made even better when many times I was introduced as "Our Fire Team Leader...Doc Terrell." I was indeed proud of my decision to be in the United States Navy, I was even more proud that I was considered to be 'one of the marines' in our company.

I LITERALLY thought that I had the "best of both worlds..." I was a United States Navy Corpsman, AND I was a FLEET MARINE FORCE Corpsman. Needless to say, I STILL think (I'm pretty sure I'm right about this) that I had the BEST time and the BEST experience as compared to the other Corpsmen there (whose only interest seemed to be to stay in the jeep, walk as little as possible, and GOD FORBID they actually got dirty or WORSE YET...learn to tear down, memorize parts and the order they went back together, clean the weapon and QUALIFY with weapons that (typical) Navy Corpsmen don't touch.). Then again, that's just *MY* opinion. Hmm..."lack of humility on my part? Yup...You got it. I stand by my words, typed or spoken.

Let me advance (quite) a few years: I have indeed 'run into' your situation (almost verbatim) so many times, I've lost count. I can tell you ALL DAY LONG how many times I've surprised a few RN's, PA's AND MD's with advanced training I've (WE AS FMF CORPSMEN) received over the years. For an FMF Corpsman to be 'relinquished' to that of a CNA I find to be insulting to say the least. BUT, as one person responding to your post said (for the most part) not many people (civilians) have a CLUE what FMF Corpsmen do. Keep in mind...I can name a FEW HUNDRED RN's that have NO CLUE what Paramedics do. I actually got into a 'dispute' with an RN of 21 years (under her white cap) when she said " Paramedics have no business handling those type of drugs and doing those procedures...that's what RN's and Doctors are for.." I'll leave *that one* alone.

In 1998, not only did I ATTEND Medical School, I GRADUATED from Medical School AT THE AGE OF FIFTY. I've been a Family Practice Physician for a while now and am (get this...) I'm preparing to go to ODS (Officer Development School) in Rhode Island to begin my NEW career as a Navy Doctor. Let me assure you, Sir...I am only too keenly aware of the stigmatism of being "Only a Medic," or "Only a Corpsman," that comes as a result of nothing more than either miscommunication, or a total lack of knowledge.

Rest assured, I've made sure that EVERY nurse (whether it be an LPN, LVN or RN) that works with me and is aware of my Navy credentials/experience as an FMF Corpsman, understands fully what WE as Fleet Marine Force Corpsmen do, which (again, in my opinion) far surpasses ANY *civilian* nurse. Case in point : FMF Corpsmen and the duties WE'VE performed in Beirut, Baghdad, Tehran, Afganistan...you name it...we're there.

It was my ENTIRE experience as a Fleet Marine Force Corpsman with the 2nd Marine Division, Camp Lejeune, NC...NOT Hospital Corps School, that makes me a BETTER PHYSICIAN and a BETTER MAN to this very day.

E L Terrell, MD

LCDR, MC, USN

SAN DIEGO

he's not the norm.

Quite bold to put your name.

Specializes in Med Surg, ER, OR.

I do agree that the nurse may have been rude toward you, but in all due respect, the military, as others have mentioned, do not train a person in their military role to that of a civilian. I am very aware of what the military medic is capable and allowed to do in the field, but the training, unless obtaining certification in the military does not compare to the civilian medic with the training and certification. An RN is an RN, and a medical doctor is a medical doctor, but she was right that most of the medics in the military, after comin out of military equal up to what a CNA is in the civilian world as far as certification goes. I had a friend in nursing school who was also a 2nd Lt in the Army as a medic who had active duty time with 15 years in. When he left the military life, he could not get EMT-P (medic status) certification because our military never provided/required him to obtain this. When he got out, he did work as a CNA at our local hospital and was awesome with it. Yes he had delivered babies, done needle crics, needle decompression, etc., but no paper said he was an EMT-P. Although one may have training to be something, it is the paperwork that means everything in the civilian world. I know I may get flack for this, or what not, and that is ok, but I am not debating that military medics deserve respect, because they do a million times over, and I am not debating if the nurse in question was rude, because she was, but when it comes down to it, the nurse was correct in stating that the training is not on the same level. That is what needs to be understood.

GREETINGS, FROM SAN DIEGO!

FIRST OF ALL, LET ME APPLAUD YOU for sharing your experience(s) and thoughts publicly (if you call posting them in a 'registered-user-only blog "public..).

I *TOTALLY* understand EXACTLY where you are coming from. Each and every moment you experienced, I have had the EXACT experience...not in one state, but in several that I have lived throughout the States. I too, am an FMF Corpsman;I retired from the US Navy as an HMCS after 22 yrs. w/ 2nd MarDiv Camp Lejeune . Went into Bootcamp (Orlando) 1 month after graduating High School; NTC Great Lakes for Hospital Corps School afterwards.

I graduated #1 in my class (79020) in "Corps School," and instead of getting ANY of my desired (plush) choices of duty stations (remember the "DREAM SHEET??"), I ended up with orders to "2nd Marine Division, Fleet Marine Force, Camp Lejeune, North Carolina." DAMN thing is...I am FROM Jacksonville, NC! Hell, the main gate to Lejeune is ONLY 6 miles from my house, and 7 miles from my High School! Holy Crap! To make matters worse...My father retired as MGySgt (E9) USMC after 35 yrs., my mother got out as SSgt after ten yrs. Welcome to **MY** misery.

I soon found out that as much as I wanted to 'escape' from "The land of the Jarheads," I came to realize that my upbringing in a Marine Corps Family; having (literally) an 'insider's perspective' of Marine Corps life was what brought me closer to my (Grunt) Marine brothers and sisters. That being said, I found it only 'natural,' or 'second nature' when I CHOSE to adapt to the Marine Corps Regulations and wear the Marine Corps Uniform.

Not only did I wear the Marine Corps uniform with pride, I *FELT* proud that I was one of 'The few, The Proud..." How quickly I was able to adapt myself as a field (Grunt) Corpsman as we were on one of our MANY 'humps' into the field. I carried my own alice pack, I carried my own EVERYTHING....JUST LIKE the other grunts in front of and next to me as we marched down the dirt trail. To this very day, I still recall being on a "Force March" that was pausing for a 15 minute break, when just as soon as our packs came off our backs, I heard, "Corpsman up!" I knew somebody needed me. Without a complaint, I headed up through the line to find a couple of grunts, their feet exposed, with the most "beautiful" set of blisters a Doc's ever seen. After 'patching them up,' and giving instructions to them and the platoon leader, I went back to my alice pack just in time to hear "Load 'em up.." and we were off again. No rest for me. SO WHAT. I was happy.

Later that day, we ended up in our lovely *playground...* "TLZ (Tactical Landing Zone) Bluebird." It was here that I had an opportunity (and I JUMPED ON IT) to qualify with the TOW, the M-16, and the LAW (Light Anti-tank Weapon). Not bad for a 'squid,' I'd say. As my time with the 6th and 8th Marines (2nd MarDiv) continued, so did my building (lifelong) friendships with my Marine Brothers and Sisters. I recall a few marines approached me (C co. 1/6), and asked if I would be there "Doc" during a competition. Not sure what this was, but said yes anyway..what the heck. Next thing I know, I'm REALLY having fun in the field. Beginning that year and for the next two years, I was the "Doc" for C Co. 1/6 when **WE** participated in the very competitive Marine Corps game of "SUPER SQUAD." Not only was I able to hone my skills as a field Corpsman, I was just as eager and competitive enough to make sure I did absolutely EVERYTHING "MY" Marines did in the field. That being said, I later became an FTL (Fire Team Leader) for our squad and LOVED it.

You know...EVERY YEAR we made it to Quantico for the 'showdown,' as I like to call it. Each time I was there, I absolutely LOVED the second looks I'd get from other marines coming in from units across the country. Standing amongst my 'fellow Marines,' as we met and shook hands with other units who were also participating in the event was made even better when many times I was introduced as "Our Fire Team Leader...Doc Terrell." I was indeed proud of my decision to be in the United States Navy, I was even more proud that I was considered to be 'one of the marines' in our company.

I LITERALLY thought that I had the "best of both worlds..." I was a United States Navy Corpsman, AND I was a FLEET MARINE FORCE Corpsman. Needless to say, I STILL think (I'm pretty sure I'm right about this) that I had the BEST time and the BEST experience as compared to the other Corpsmen there (whose only interest seemed to be to stay in the jeep, walk as little as possible, and GOD FORBID they actually got dirty or WORSE YET...learn to tear down, memorize parts and the order they went back together, clean the weapon and QUALIFY with weapons that (typical) Navy Corpsmen don't touch.). Then again, that's just *MY* opinion. Hmm..."lack of humility on my part? Yup...You got it. I stand by my words, typed or spoken.

Let me advance (quite) a few years: I have indeed 'run into' your situation (almost verbatim) so many times, I've lost count. I can tell you ALL DAY LONG how many times I've surprised a few RN's, PA's AND MD's with advanced training I've (WE AS FMF CORPSMEN) received over the years. For an FMF Corpsman to be 'relinquished' to that of a CNA I find to be insulting to say the least. BUT, as one person responding to your post said (for the most part) not many people (civilians) have a CLUE what FMF Corpsmen do. Keep in mind...I can name a FEW HUNDRED RN's that have NO CLUE what Paramedics do. I actually got into a 'dispute' with an RN of 21 years (under her white cap) when she said " Paramedics have no business handling those type of drugs and doing those procedures...that's what RN's and Doctors are for.." I'll leave *that one* alone.

In 1998, not only did I ATTEND Medical School, I GRADUATED from Medical School AT THE AGE OF FIFTY. I've been a Family Practice Physician for a while now and am (get this...) I'm preparing to go to ODS (Officer Development School) in Rhode Island to begin my NEW career as a Navy Doctor. Let me assure you, Sir...I am only too keenly aware of the stigmatism of being "Only a Medic," or "Only a Corpsman," that comes as a result of nothing more than either miscommunication, or a total lack of knowledge.

Rest assured, I've made sure that EVERY nurse (whether it be an LPN, LVN or RN) that works with me and is aware of my Navy credentials/experience as an FMF Corpsman, understands fully what WE as Fleet Marine Force Corpsmen do, which (again, in my opinion) far surpasses ANY *civilian* nurse. Case in point : FMF Corpsmen and the duties WE'VE performed in Beirut, Baghdad, Tehran, Afganistan...you name it...we're there.

It was my ENTIRE experience as a Fleet Marine Force Corpsman with the 2nd Marine Division, Camp Lejeune, NC...NOT Hospital Corps School, that makes me a BETTER PHYSICIAN and a BETTER MAN to this very day.

E L Terrell, MD

LCDR, MC, USN

SAN DIEGO

Does it help to make sure all the nurses whom you think you all surpass are aware of your belief that THEY are second rate? Don't you, Doctor, realize after all these years that different laws apply to civilian and military settings?

Specializes in Emergency Dept, ICU.
threatened? :rolleyes:

I would hire a Nurse/EMTP before a Nurse alone. They have better and

more expanded skill sets and perform better under pressure

most of the time.

Sometimes that intimidates Nurses.

Specializes in icu/er.

millitary medic vs civillian rn? 2 different animals in two different worlds of medicine regulated by different chains of command. as a former 91b20 and now a rn i can speak first hand of the different roles i played in each enviroment. i can say i have learned more as a rn however i must claim that being a army medic was the foundation upon my progression to nursing.

thanks for your past service, brother.

there is nothing in the world like a marine, and nothing above them for "exporting diplomacy".

Specializes in ER, Forensics.
SanDiegoNavyDoc,

With all due respect sir, this is a nursing forum so what is your point? If you wanted us all to know that your prior experience made you better, mission accomplished. I hope that is the case for all of us. The problem that the OP doesn't seem to understand is that civilian licensure and the privileges it brings does not care what a FMF corpsman knows or doesn't. As an MD, you should understand that if you want to practice as anything alphabetical (RN, MD, EMT-P, etc) you have to jump through those hoops. You could scream and whine all day about how you can do skill x y and z because you were a corpsman, medic, or have a boyscout sewing badge (next we'll have one these complaining that no one at the hospital will let them put in stitches) but the fact of the matter is, legally you cannot. I for sure know that FMF Corpsman are highly skilled, does that mean I would let them use it in my ER? If I want to keep my job I won't. MD's in the nursing forum, interesting.

Good Lord - Seriously?

Is this a place that no other people are allowed to post at and to express their opinions? RN's ONLY? That does not encourage much learning from each other now does it?

I, for one, love hearing/learning from people outside of my own scope of practice - be it MD, EMT, EMT-P, CNA, ABC123, or whatever. How can we provide well rounded care for a patient if we only get one piece of the puzzle?

As for the OP - I "read" more that he felt disrespected in his knowledge - he wasn't saying he HAD to perform the same skills as someone else (RN). Think about it this way......... if an MD disrespected your knowledge in an area and poo-pooed your skill set, you KNOW you would be on here whining about how big bad Dr. Poopypants didn't respect you as a professional. RN's can't do the same as MD's but we sure as heck expect professional respect from them. I see it the same in this situation. The OP can't do the same as an RN in a civilian hospital, but they sure as heck expect professional respect from them/us.

Golden rule goes a long way people.

Specializes in ED.

Is this a true MD. Medics are called Doc in the military as a sign of respect.

Specializes in ED.

Ok I see he's both. Sweet

Specializes in Postpartum, Antepartum, Psych., SDS, OR.
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