Got a promotion because of my big...

hecallsmeDuchess · Sep 11, 2011

I'm sorry and I apologize but before reading your post I thought the promotion was based on your big 'tits' and I was already outraged that they would treat you like a piece of meat. I'm still outraged at how you were treated but Congrats on your promotion!

Altra, BSN, RN · Sep 11, 2011

I have to pipe in here! I completely disagree with those replying that "that's the way things are" or "maybe you need new dentures". Expletive-that! Its wrong, it's unlawful, and you do not need to take it.

How is it unlawful? What statute or regulation is being breached?

Why is it wrong to consider presentation/appearance in a professional, particularly for a leadership position?

What is exceptional in this case, as it has been presented here, is that the OP is male. Females are routinely "counseled" on appearance matters as they move up the organizational ladder ... hair, makeup, nails, clothing & accessory choices.

As another poster wisely stated ... it is what it is.

commonsense · Sep 11, 2011

SMILE?
Background: I am a fairly new RN who has been working LTC for about a year. We have been in need of a unit manager for close to the entire time I have been there. I figured being so new it was out of reach, and I wanted to cut my teeth on the floor as much as possible.
A few weeks ago the DON approached me and encouraged me to apply for the unit manager position. I applied, interviewed, and waited. Week or so later I was informed that the higher ups wanted me to get more experience on the floor. I really couldn't argue with that. Then I found out the UM they did hire is a new grad...but with a BSN (I have an ASN). I felt some sour grapes but in this economy was happy to have a job period.
Few days ago the DON calls me up and with a few other managers in attendance tells me that if I was willing to wear dentures I would be promoted to Unit Manager....I thought at first they were joking and this was just a creative way to offer me the position after all..
They weren't joking.
I asked them was the only reason I was denied a promotion was because I didnt wear dentures and they spoke in the affirmative.
Now, I don't have teeth, and unless I told you, you would never know. My face hasn't fallen in on itself, my speech is perfectly clear, and I don't tend to give "toothy" smiles.
I own dentures, but never took to them. I lisp when I wear them, grimace a lot, and drinking anything hot really is a pain with them in.
So, I took the promotion but feel a little let down by my company that "teeth" are a pre-req for management. I know all about "professional" appearances and all...I keep my hair short, press and starch my scrub creases (Former Marine), cover my tattoos (again, former Marine) with a long sleeve scrub jacket, and try to keep compose myself as a medical professional.
Maybe I am making too much out of this but makes me wonder what else could have been asked...I have streaks of grey and white in my hair...hair dye?, I wear reading glasses sometimes..contacts?...I wear my laugh lines and crows feet proudly...botox?..I'm overweight...bariatric surgery?
Guess Im just confused and disappointed

You could have tried to use it to your advantage. I would have taken the argument of "Well I work in Long Term Care, I'm just trying to make myself easier to be around for the residents. I've noticed that since most of them don't have teeth, they feel a little jealous of a person who does have the benefit of having teeth. I actually got them removed based on the idea that I was working for this company, I feel that shows some dedication." Good thing you're not a smart ass like myself.

SharonH, RN · Sep 11, 2011

I'm frankly surprised that you were able to get hired at all without any teeth. Lack of teeth is not something I associate with a professional appearance, nothin personal. You should get your dentures re-fitted.

rn/writer, RN · Sep 11, 2011

smile?
background: i am a fairly new rn who has been working ltc for about a year. we have been in need of a unit manager for close to the entire time i have been there. i figured being so new it was out of reach, and i wanted to cut my teeth on the floor as much as possible.
had to point out this (probably) unintended pun. sorry.
a few weeks ago the don approached me and encouraged me to apply for the unit manager position. i applied, interviewed, and waited. week or so later i was informed that the higher ups wanted me to get more experience on the floor. i really couldn't argue with that. then i found out the um they did hire is a new grad...but with a bsn (i have an asn). i felt some sour grapes but in this economy was happy to have a job period.
few days ago the don calls me up and with a few other managers in attendance tells me that if i was willing to wear dentures i would be promoted to unit manager....i thought at first they were joking and this was just a creative way to offer me the position after all..
they weren't joking.
i asked them was the only reason i was denied a promotion was because i didnt wear dentures and they spoke in the affirmative.
now, i don't have teeth, and unless i told you, you would never know. my face hasn't fallen in on itself, my speech is perfectly clear, and i don't tend to give "toothy" smiles.
apparently, your unit managers do know. just because you don't display the most extreme signs of having an edentulous mouth, that doesn't mean that others aren't aware. they may suspect or even be fairly certain but be too polite to comment.
i own dentures, but never took to them. i lisp when i wear them, grimace a lot, and drinking anything hot really is a pain with them in.
a reline can be quite a bit less expensive than getting a new set made. perhaps, this would be an option for you. just know that if you have gone for a lengthy time without having teeth or dentures, you will go through an adjustment period. the more you wear them, the better they will feel. practice speaking and eating with them on your days off, so that they will feel more natural. if you need to use denture adhesive, by all means, do so.
you should also know that even if your alveolar ridges (jawboness) haven't receded much at this stage, you have decades ahead of you where this could change. people who wear properly fitting dentures suffer less from bone loss than those who don't you're only 41 now, but think ahead to 61 or 81.
so, i took the promotion but feel a little let down by my company that "teeth" are a pre-req for management. i know all about "professional" appearances and all...i keep my hair short, press and starch my scrub creases (former marine), cover my tattoos (again, former marine) with a long sleeve scrub jacket, and try to keep compose myself as a medical professional.
maybe i am making too much out of this but makes me wonder what else could have been asked...i have streaks of grey and white in my hair...hair dye?, i wear reading glasses sometimes..contacts?...i wear my laugh lines and crows feet proudly...botox?..i'm overweight...bariatric surgery?
guess im just confused and disappointed

---------

i'm still outraged at how you were treated

its wrong, it's unlawful, and you do not need to take it.

i would think your not having teeth could be seen a a type of disability. that might be covered under the americans with disabilities act. it would be worth a call to find out. i would go after them with all i have. i can't believe they did that to you. i am so sorry they did this to you.

i do not like these people

speaking of wrongs, that was wrong of them

i'm having a hard time believing the level of outrage and indignation in this thread. it might have been wrong for them not to hire the op at all, or to hire someone less qualified than he was because they had teeth and he didn't, but the facility didn't do that.

promotion to management is a different matter. at the management level, appearances do matter to some degree.

gently, and with respect, i would suggest that it is possible more people notice than you are aware of. in the us in 2011, good dentition has come to be considered part of basic grooming. right or wrong, an endentulous mouth is outside of societal expectations.

to act as if he has been insulted or rejected or discriminated against seems like such an emotional response and one that is just not realistic in today's business world.

if they didn't tell him their reservation and offer him the opportunity to change things, that, to me, would have been unfair, and would have amounted to making the decision for him. these folks approached him and shared what was holding them back. this is not something outlandish.

many, many people who are starting to climb a company ladder have been taken aside at one time or another and asked to improve grooming habits, the way they dress, etiquette, english grammar and usage, and yes, things like the need for dentures or partials. some businesses hold classes to help the up-and-comers learn how to make the most of what they have and represent the company well. the way i see it, instead of being insulting, this is actually an expression of belief in the employee's innate value and a desire to help them remove any hindrances to their success.

firing or refusing to hire qualified people for looking in some serious way outside of the norm may well be discrimination, but declining to promote them when there are equally qualified people who present themselves better is probably not.

people are so quick to cry, "discrimination!" and mention lawsuits without taking into account the totality of the circumstances. in this case, the other managers obviously like this guy and want him to be promoted. but they made him feel disappointed and sad, so, "off with their heads!"

btw, i tried to see if being toothless was considered a protected disability. couldn't find anything on it. if anyone has any information about this, please, post it.

applewhitern, BSN, RN · Sep 11, 2011

You sound like a very intelligent person. Whatever path you take, teeth or no teeth, I wish you good luck. Being female, I have always taken great steps to look as good as I can. I color my gray hair (light ash blonde by Preference!) and take good care of my skin. I wish my teeth were whiter, but age takes away their luster. Women have been discriminated against so much, for so many things... we can't all be size 2 with double D's! Unfortunately, this is the world we live in.

brandy1017, ASN, RN · Sep 11, 2011

The health system I work for has been adding "professional appearance" to part of the job eval but it seems like it will be a way to make it more of a beauty contest and a way to discriminate against older workers and anyone who doesn't meet the beauty ideal.

In the past they used a young RN (cheerleader type) in adds, but after she turned 40 they stopped, and she was a fan of plastic surgery and all the works!

GHGoonette, BSN, RN · Sep 11, 2011

First of all, I don't think there's any reason to get your collective backs up because of perceived "discrimination". If that was the case, they wouldn't have employed him in the first place. On the contrary, they're offering him an opportunity for advancement, providing he complies with what they regard as acceptable criteria for management, and conforming to the "image" is usually part of that, regardless of where you work.

However, that's not why I'm posting; this just reminds me of a hilarious story about a nurse sans front teeth. Now, this one does smile a lot, exposing that upper front gap. Years ago, corporate management brought out the ruling that any staff members involved in "front line" care must please wear their dentures. This nurse, having no health insurance, informed the UM that she had no dentures and couldn't afford them, so our former manager (may he be blessed wherever he is for the good man that he is) paid out of his own pocket for a set of dentures for her.

I asked her why she had never had dentures, as State health care used to provide them, and she told me that she had, in fact, had her own set of dentures. I asked, "But M, why don't you wear them?" and she answered "They were stolen!"

I burst out laughing and asked her "But who would steal your teeth?" and she answered "My brother. He didn't have teeth either."

CareteamRN70 · Sep 11, 2011

More background to fill in the blanks:

My DON found out I didnt have teeth because she was complaining about her dentures and I joined in the conversation stating I don't wear any and don't seem to have any problems. At this time she stated she would have never known if I had not said anything.

I am a bit put off by all the post that keep equating me not having teeth with dressing scuzzy, unkept hair, pimple outbreaks etc. As I mentioned before I take great care with my "general" appearance.

My dentures do not hurt me, I am just not used to them and that causes my "grimace", I "know" they are forgeign objects in my mouth and I think I mentally rebel against that.

Also, I did not lose my teeth to bad oral hygeine. Up until I lost my teeth I took rather good care of them. I lost some of teeth due to the mishaps of youth that normally started with the redneck battlecry "Hey Ya'll watch me do this"

BUT what killed my teeth was a rather nasty URI I got that required a lot of IV antibiotics...I swear before I even left the hospital my teeth had started to crumble like candle wax. A year of this and frequent gum/tooth/jaw infections took it's toll and I conceded my mouth to the dentist.

As for discrimination...I do not feel discriminated against. To me stupidity is stupidity...no need to glorify it to the level of "discrimination".

My original post I will admit came from a bruised ego...not over my lack of teeth..but that my skill as a damn good floor nurse (if I say so myself) was not the mitigating factor in me landing the position.

As for those that railed against my post and any offering me moral support I offer this...yea life is life..reality is reality and what a drab boring reality it is for some when they stop questioning and the word Why? drops from their vocabulary.

For those that did offer support fear not...as I said I took the job..to which they may soon regret, I've become quite adept at popping my dentures out soon as the higherups leave and I am now embarking on a quest to see how much "fun" my dentures can bring...

Last night I walked up to an aide and showed her my dentures in hand and said "See what one of the residents gave me as a gift?'

She blanched and stated "Why would you even take them?!?!"

at which point I popped em in my mouth and said "Because they fit great!"

She covered her mouth in shock and ran to another unit...good times..good times.

nerdtonurse?, BSN, RN · Sep 11, 2011

They want you to wear them, there are days where I'd drill a hole in them and hang them around my neck...."Hey, you said I had to wear them, so I'm wearing them..."

I'd rather have someone without teeth who I could understand than someone who's been so Botox'd that they sound like Thurston Howell the third because they can't bring their lips together...

leslie :-D · Sep 11, 2011

For those that did offer support fear not...as I said I took the job..to which they may soon regret, I've become quite adept at popping my dentures out soon as the higherups leave and I am now embarking on a quest to see how much "fun" my dentures can bring...

i don't know who will regret it more.

mgmt, for hiring you...or you, for getting either demoted or fired once you're caught.

it's unfortunate that they were trusting enough to share their feelings with you, and promoted you to give you the chance you avidly sought.

this is the norm of u.s. society and business...nothing new, nor was it discriminatory.

folks just don't get it...it really IS what it is...until someone comes along and changes it.

best of luck to you.

leslie

xtxrn, ASN, RN · Sep 11, 2011

Last night I walked up to an aide and showed her my dentures in hand and said "See what one of the residents gave me as a gift?'
She blanched and stated "Why would you even take them?!?!"
at which point I popped em in my mouth and said "Because they fit great!"
She covered her mouth in shock and ran to another unit...good times..good times.

:yeah: :yeah: :yeah: :yeah: