Firearms

Dogen · Sep 30, 2015

Yes, that is my story. Happened in a gas station bathroom in Truth Or Consequences New Mexico. I was 16 years old and one of a group of four 15, 16 & 17 year old boys who were driving from Southern California to Arkansas to go boar hunting with my grandfather.

That sounds terrifying. I'm sorry that happened to you.

Dogen · Sep 30, 2015

I live in California. In my county, about 5 years ago there were less than 1,000 people with CCW licenses. Now there are close to 7,000. Here's an interesting statistic: At the end of 2014, violent crime and murder rates were at a 40 year LOW in my county. Since Prop 47 took effect, crime has increased about 25%. Certain violent crimes have also increased, but murders haven't. That's an increase off of the 40 year low. While about 7,000 more firearms are out in public in the area, that part hasn't contributed significantly to increased crime rates. Prop 47, however, certainly seems to have done that instead, according to a significant number of Sheriffs in the State.

Have you seen the research - out of Texas no less - that found no correlation between the number of concealed carry permits and crime rates? Which could really bolster either side... I mean, you may not be deterring crime, but you're also not shooting up the joint, either.

PMFB-RN, RN · Sep 30, 2015

Seriously. The paranoia all you people with guns (excluding hunting), especially with you CC, have is truly frightening. How sad is must be to live like that.

I think this is a gross mischaracterization of the feelings of most of those who carry firearms. I don't live in fear, far from it. I don't live in fear that my house will burn down, but I carry fire insurance and have 2 well maintained fire extinguishers in my house, and other in my shop, and a small one in my truck. I don't live in fear that my truck will break down and leave me to freeze to death one winter night, but I carry some tools, a spare tire and have a AAA membership. I see carrying a firearm about the same as I do the fire extinguishers. A safety device that, at lease sometimes, is reasonable and prudent to be prepared with.

I was VERY happy I was armed during the LA riots as I attempted to reach home. On several occasions that day letting groups of rioters who approached my truck know I was armed kept me out of trouble and moving on my way.

At least three times in my civilian life I believe being armed prevented me from great bodily harm, or being killed. I already related the experience of the man kicking in the bathroom stall door. Another time I was using an ATM a guy came up behind me with a knife and demanded money. I opened my jacket and showed him my revolver and he turned around and left quickly.

PMFB-RN, RN · Sep 30, 2015

That sounds terrifying. I'm sorry that happened to you.

Thanks, it was a very long time ago. The funny thing is I wasn't carrying a firearm. We had noticed a car with 4 scary looking guys who we suspected might be following us. We got very nervous when they pulled off the interstate behind us and into the same gas station. It made me nervous enough that I went to the trunk of the car and got out my 50 year old family heirloom 22 revolver and loaded it and tucked it into my jacket pocket before I went to the bathroom.

The large man didn't laugh that that it was "only" a 22, or that it was already very old. He just got an "OH CRAP!" look on his face and about faced right out of there.

I think the fact that he kicked in the stall door eliminates any possibility he was harmless. I am very happy that I didn't have to discharge the revolver.

akulahawkRN, ADN, RN, EMT-P · Sep 30, 2015

Do you have data to support any of this? Not that I necessarily doubt you - within the gun debate you can pretty easily find a study that says anything - I've just never heard "CCW holders tend to be amongst the most law-abiding people around." I'm not even sure how you'd study that... does it include every law? Do CCW holders use their indicators before changing lanes more often than non-CCW holders? Do they make fewer illegal U-turns? I've read research that people who drive with guns in their cars are more likely to report engaging in aggressive (and sometimes illegal) driving behavior. But that's not CCW, right?
I don't mean to be car-specific. There are a lot of laws out there. Do CCW holders follow all of them more closely than those of us without CCWs? Do you jaywalk less? Open other people's mail less? Do you join office betting pools or play poker with your friends less? Do CCW holders speed less than non-CCW holders? Do you guys wear your seatbelts more, or pee in the woods less? Help me out here.

One of the more popular methods of studying this is to compare arrest rates of CCW holders vs general public or any other specific group. Another way is to look at revocation rates. One of these licenses/permits will be revoked if the holder is convicted of a crime that prohibits them from owning firearms, any felony, or (usually) any crime that involves a firearm.

Texas and Florida are often cited in the studies because the data is very easy to come by- they publish it to the web.

In any event, despite the fear that our cities, towns, and neighborhoods will be awash in blood if so many people are allowed to carry their firearms out in public, well, that just hasn't happened. In general, violent crime has been on the decrease over the past 20-30 years, about the same amount of time that CCW has begun expanding across the States. Clearly this isn't causation, but usually when a state began allowing the public to carry firearms, there was a shift in crime pattern away from violent crime to property crime.

One of the problems with the linked abstract is that it appears they didn't control for legal ownership of weapons or past criminality. Arizona was probably chosen as at the time, it was probably legal to have firearms in the car without a CCW permit, same as a house. There are/were several states around that time that allowed that practice. The results could very well have been very different had they surveyed California instead.

RNperdiem, RN · Sep 30, 2015

I never felt a need to carry weaponry around in my daily life. If others feel the need, then I hope they use some common sense and responsibility. Most of the GSW I see at work are the self-inflicted kind.

Statistically, an affluent, middle-aged suburban woman like me is not likely to be killed by a violent stranger. In the news, it always seems to be the husband, boyfriend or ex.

elkpark · Sep 30, 2015

One of the more popular methods of studying this is to compare arrest rates of CCW holders vs general public or any other specific group. Another way is to look at revocation rates. One of these licenses/permits will be revoked if the holder is convicted of a crime that prohibits them from owning firearms, any felony, or (usually) any crime that involves a firearm.

So, to clarify your earlier sweeping generalization somewhat, you actually have no idea whether or not CCW holders are more "law-abiding" than the general public; there are just some statistics that show they get arrested at a lower rate than the general public. I'm pretty sure we are all aware that there is no necessary relationship between people breaking laws and those same people getting arrested for breaking those laws.

(However, if those statistics, however meaningless, do show that CCW permit holders do, in fact, get arrested at a lower rate than the general public, I can understand why that would be a "more popular" method of arguing the case for the safety of CCW permits ...)

Dogen · Sep 30, 2015

One of the more popular methods of studying this is to compare arrest rates of CCW holders vs general public or any other specific group. Another way is to look at revocation rates. One of these licenses/permits will be revoked if the holder is convicted of a crime that prohibits them from owning firearms, any felony, or (usually) any crime that involves a firearm.

I used your criteria and went hunting very, very briefly (I'm headed to work in a few minutes) and couldn't find anything published in the last 10 years except for this, which reports an increase in certain types of crime, but not specifically among CCW holders. Interestingly, that paper also mentions an earlier position by the National Research Council, in which an analysis could not substantiate that more guns meant less crime... but, again, not CCW holders. Do you have actual data you can share?

Texas and Florida are often cited in the studies because the data is very easy to come by- they publish it to the web.

I don't know about Florida, but Texas is actually very difficult to find information about because their laws limit what information the Department of Public Safety is even allowed to collect, let alone publish. In 2001 a state law was enacted that restricted DPS reporting only to convictions (not arrests) and only for crimes specified by the state legislature.

In any event, despite the fear that our cities, towns, and neighborhoods will be awash in blood if so many people are allowed to carry their firearms out in public, well, that just hasn't happened. In general, violent crime has been on the decrease over the past 20-30 years, about the same amount of time that CCW has begun expanding across the States.

It's true that violent crime as a whole is down across the country, but this is in relation to an increase in the 1970s and 1980s. We're now back down to the rate of violent crime that was observed in the 1960s - well before most states enacted broad concealed carry laws. Honestly, this type of statistic seems like cherry picking.

One of the problems with the linked abstract is that it appears they didn't control for legal ownership of weapons or past criminality. Arizona was probably chosen as at the time, it was probably legal to have firearms in the car without a CCW permit, same as a house. There are/were several states around that time that allowed that practice. The results could very well have been very different had they surveyed California instead.

I'll check these facts for you when I get home... I don't really put any stock in musings of what may or may not have been the case.

ORDC · Sep 30, 2015

I am all for gun ownership. Any law abiding citizen should be allowed to own weapon that law enforcement has. The obvious exceptions being military grade weapons on par with tanks, jets, aircraft carriers, nuclear missiles, etc.

That said, the argument I favor most that shows why crime rates have gone down over the past 40 years is abortion.

The Donohue-Levitt Hypothesis is an economic study that analyzes this phenomena.

Basically, who are most likely to commit crime? People from single mother households. Prison population data supports this. Who typically has abortion? Single pregnant women.

I am 100% pro abortion and this is my strongest argument in favor of it. In terms of mental health, I think a woman with near zero financial resources or support has to be crazy to have a kid. The kid grows up crazy, etc. . .a vicious cycle. Abortion puts an end to that and nips the criminal literally at the bud and prevents future victims from manifesting.

Nurse Leigh · Sep 30, 2015

I am all for gun ownership. Any law abiding citizen should be allowed to own weapon that law enforcement has. The obvious exceptions being military grade weapons on par with tanks, jets, aircraft carriers, nuclear missiles, etc.
That said, the argument I favor most that shows why crime rates have gone down over the past 40 years is abortion.
The Donohue-Levitt Hypothesis is an economic study that analyzes this phenomena.
Basically, who are most likely to commit crime? People from single mother households. Prison population data supports this. Who typically has abortion? Single pregnant women.
I am 100% pro abortion and this is my strongest argument in favor of it. In terms of mental health, I think a woman with near zero financial resources or support has to be crazy to have a kid. The kid grows up crazy, etc. . .a vicious cycle. Abortion puts an end to that and nips the criminal literally at the bud and prevents future victims from manifesting.

Good God. I am totally pro *choice*. Have never heard of someone who is pro abortion. Leave it to a Trump supporter. :rolleyes:

ORDC · Sep 30, 2015

Good God. I am totally pro *choice*. Have never heard of someone who is pro abortion. Leave it to a Trump supporter.

You are funny. . .!

But I think the term, "pro-choice" is disingenuous. Because, a pro-life person will say, "you made your choice when you chose to have sex now you have to deal with the consequences." I can see the logic in that sentiment, but my issue if a person is going to act like an animal and not able to control their hormones, treat them as such and allow them to abort an unwanted fetus the way we control pet populations.

As an aside, and off topic, but I have had the following discussion with buddies and most all love it!

SO, my health care plan would be, abortion anytime anywhere no questions with cases involving a minor we keep the DNA evidence for going after what may be a predator rapist out there. Better yet, the government will pay the gal to have the abortion. A few hundred bucks. Even better, if the woman opts to get sterilized, we pay her a few thousand dollars with a graduated decrease till the woman hits menopause. With men? We pay them a couple thousand dollars to get free sterilization. We would have to tattoo a small symbol on the perineum though so that if they go to a doctor to reverse it, the doctor will not be legally allowed to do so until the guy reimburses the government for the sterilization procedure and money. Such information should also be in a medical chart, but just in case the tattoo.

I subscribe to Malthusian economics and think this is a beautiful plan (though I know it may need a few tweaks, etc). Talking it over with buddies, they think I should run for office. Just think, in a generation, we can literally turn this country around without hurting anyone but "helping them." Anyone who has seen that movie "Idiocracy" would know, my plan has merit.

brownbook · Sep 30, 2015

I've changed my mind about carrying a gun. I think I will carry a gun...then I won't have to worry about what to say.

I get completely tongue tied when I get angry, and can'think of what words to use! So I'll just pull out my gun and say...."maybe you want to rethink what you just said to me", or even, "you are making me very angry", as I point my gun at that person....I think that will get my feelings across when my words fail me! :roflmao: