Fed-up: Admin will not even meet with me so I can withdrawal. A warning to others.

[reluctantrn]

Hey everyone,

I recently posted about an issue I am having and the great people here at AN helped me come to a decision. I am getting the heck out of nursing school. Sorry I ever invested a minute in this abusive profession. Do a search for 'Nurses, Abuse" on any search engine, here on AN, or in your school's peer reviewed library. It is utterly insane how many results there are. Patients abusing nurses, nurses abusing other nurses, managers abusing nurses, professors abusing nursing students, clinical instructors abusing students...Why did I refuse to see the writing on the wall? I guess because I though I could just find the right job and avoid it. Nope.

Anyway, I wanted to vent and to share what has happened to me so that others are empowered through all the knowledge they can gain, if they choose to research before deciding to enter nursing school.

Just how abusive is it? Here is a story. You can look at my last post to garner details about the abuse that lead me to the decision to leave the program...but here is what has happened to me since I decided to leave and TRIED to do so...

Normal process for any grievance is to contact the program director. Not an option in may case because she has lied, refuses to let me bring someone with me as a witness during meetings, refuses to speak with me via email, and previous verbal communication has come back to bite me on the buttocks. At this point, she is unwilling to allow me ANY kind of witness--be it a human or a cyber witness. And, I am so traumatized that I don't feel I can meet with her at all, in any capacity at this point.

So, I contact the Associate Dean (next in line and normal stepping stone if you cannot goto the director). I explain that I have tried to speak with the director and she will not do so in any way that I (and the schools handbook outlines as acceptable) feel comfortable with.

She denies me. Says I must meet with the director first..after I just explained that I tried to do so via email or with someone else to witness meeting.

So, I contact the Dean. Same thing.

So, I contact the Dean of Academic Affairs of the School of Nursing. She won't even return my email. Small department, statement already made to indicate that they have spoken about the matter.

All I want is to get the heck OUT. It is my first semester. My financial aid is at stake. My future is at stake. I just want to discuss the issues that have led me to this decision and find out my options as to how to best withdrawal without ramifications to my academic future (in another field).

They are so abusive that they will not even let me leave. Talk about slavery. My only saving grace is that I know people outside the nursing department and although I would rather avoid it, I can pull that weight if I have to. Most students don't have this option, so what do they do?

What will you do if it happens to you?

If you are considering attending nursing school, I highly suggest that you speak with recent prior students to discuss the REAL situation, not just GPA entry requirements or HESI exams. But the real meat of the program. If I had done so, I would have attended somewhere else and most likely, would have become a FNP. Can't say that I am going to be disappointed though. I have resigned to the fact that they are doing me a favor by reminding me about the abuse aspect of this career in my first semester rather than after years of time invested and at my first job.

Make wise choices.

This is a vent and information sharing post. I am not looking for feedback because any constructive feedback as to what I can do would require me revealing too much about the internal structure of my program and may ID me.

Once things blow over, I'll reveal more, but for now I can't.

But seriously, here I am having to study my butt off for a class that I hope to be able to withdrawal from, incase I can't. I can't even garner a meeting with someone so that I can have an exit interview, unless I expose myself to abuse by the director. This is ridiculous.

To all the kind instructors out there, who want students to succeed and who value top students, bless you.

To the abusive ones, to quote Bob Dylan, "You ain't worth the blood/That runs in your veins".

Hope this helps someone out there somewhere to make an informed choice as to if you really want to attend nursing school. I'm not saying you shouldn't, just sharing my journey so you know it could happen to you.

You can be, and many students ARE, abused in nursing school.

[Red Kryptonite]

Go buy a cheap voice recorder at Walmart or call a friend right before the meeting, have that friend mute their phone and put yours on speaker phone. You don't need a witness in person, you can do that electronically.

As previously discussed in this thread, in many if not most places, that's illegal.

OP you're just gonna have to suck it up and meet with the director.

[jadelpn, LPN, EMT-B]

OP, I do get what you mean. If you "stop paying" or don't withdraw the correct way, you can be held responsible to pay back federal loans/grants/fin aid for an education that you never took. And if you don't pay them back, they can and do garnish wages and you are banned from ever taking out another loan for schooling.

Have you thought about an attorney? If the dean is not allowing you to bring witness to communication, would you again write an email stating that you are requesting a meeting, in such meeting you will bring_____ as a witness? Do you have a student advisor? Can the guidance counselor get involved? Is there a student government that you can discuss this with? In any event, if the dean continues not to respond, or responds that you can not bring in a third party, save the emails, you may need them.

I would also be just really clear about getting the heck out and moving on with no or little financial downfall for you. I would not really get into the abuse aspect of things, as it sounds like they are aware, but not responding to that. Once you are out and your financial aid is intact, THEN you can file a complaint, attorney generals office perhaps......but just do what you need to at present to insure your financial aid is intact, and that you will not be responsible for a loan that you did not use.

It does sound as if you are feeling helpless and trapped. But find whatever the school has in the way of resources. If there's none, then I would contact an attorney to deal with this for you.

Sometimes personalities clash and things just don't work. And that's ok. All of this garbage really does seem to occur with for profit schools. But then again, all this garbage seems to happen in more and more facilities too.

Best wishes moving forward.

[Momma1RN, MSN, RN, APRN]

The associate dean, and the dean have refused to meet with me until I first meet with the director. The director has refused speak with me via email and has refused to allow me to being anyone with me for an in-person meeting. I do not (for a plethora of reason's) trust meeting with the director without any kind of record. I have explained this (as well as my valid reasons, she has lied about several important things--the biggest being what program I am in) to the asst. dean/dean and they still refuse to meet with me unless I meet, alone, in-person, with the director first.

Hope I answered your question.

I said that I *strongly believed* that she had narcissistic personality disorder, I did not state it as a fact. And no, I am not a psychologist but I play one on TV. Seriously, you don't have to be a psychologist to recognize when someone isn't right.

Why all the bad vibes. I said I wasn't looking for advice and can anyone honestly say that they have not heard of and/or experienced similar issues at school or at work? Bullies?

Sounds like you went to a reasonable school.

You are going to have to deal with difficult personalities everywhere. If you're not willing to meet with an administrator at your nursing SCHOOL without a "witness" (you know, in case she pulls out a gun and shoots you? I guess that must be what you're afraid of if you absolutely will not meet her on your own?), I'm sorry to say you won't make it in nursing. We deal with difficult coworkers, patients, patients family members, administrators, etc. If I ran to my boss and requested a formal meeting with a witness of my choosing every time someone hurt my feelings, I would be out of a job. Quickly. My nursing school was filled with difficult professors and administrators. But my desire to be a nurse far outweighed my desire to "stick it to the man" and whistle blow on every "unfair" practice they had in place. So buck up and withdraw. If that means meeting the dean or professor or whomever, ON YOUR OWN, just DO IT. I doubt very seriously she has shackles in her office ready to lock you in the closet for the rest of your life.

[mmc51264, BSN, MSN, RN]

Either withdraw and go on your merry way or get a lawyer to force them to meet with you with attorney present, if you feel that strongly.

[TheCommuter, BSN, RN]

If you're not willing to meet with an administrator at your nursing SCHOOL without a "witness" (you know, in case she pulls out a gun and shoots you? I guess that must be what you're afraid of if you absolutely will not meet her on your own?), I'm sorry to say you won't make it in nursing.

To be fair, according to posting history the OP is already an experienced RN who is enrolled in a classroom-based RN-to-MSN program. Hence, she likely has gotten a taste of what real-world nursing is all about (perhaps).

Although some people exhibit snobbery toward online programs, I do not think the OP would be dealing with this profound degree of drama and histrionics if she had enrolled in a distance-based RN-to-MSN program. Online programs are great in that the professors do not know the students enough to treat them in a prejudicial manner.

[ixchel]

Dear Director,

Respectfully, I am hoping to gain a better understanding of your position against a witness to our conversation being present. Would it be more amenable if a member of faculty or administration be present instead? The reason why this is important to me is I feel uncomfortable with the direction previous conversations have gone. Without being certain whether it is my own misunderstanding, I feel it best we have a neutral party present as a witness, to know that neither of us is being misunderstood. So, if it is okay with you, I request a meeting with you again, with a witness of your choosing present.

For the sake of full disclosure, I presently am feeling like it would be best if I withdrew from the nursing program. I appreciate the time and energy that has been invested in me up until this point, but I am not sure that nursing is a good fit for me, or that I am a good fit for nursing. This is, in part, what I wish to discuss.

Thank you for your time,

AngryJadedNursingStudent

[reluctantrn]

Dear JadeLpn,

THANK YOU SO AMAZINGLY MUCH! I appreciate your advice and will do my best to exercise it. I they will allow me to bring someone, I will and if not, then I will have it on email.

I also appreciate your wisdom and I hope others follow it. This is a private school but not a for profit one. In any case, anytime you need to withdraw--for a single class or for an entire program, you need to FIRST meet with financial aid. There can be serious repercussions. Having to pay money you do not have is one. Denial of any future federal financial aid is another.

Please everyone, follow this wise posters advice, if you must ever drop or withdraw from a class. Get it in writing.

Yours is the first post I have read that understands this and it too is vital information to share with others.

Thank you

[reluctantrn]

@Momma1Rn,

The only person I am not willing to meet with is the director. I have valid reasons for not doing so. If you met with your boss and they told you that you were going to receive a $10 an hour raise, so you passed up another job offer, then a month later they denied ever telling you this, would you not feel the need to get future communications in writing?

Furthermore, school policy states that I have a right to use email as a means of academic advising.

[reluctantrn]

Dear TheCommuter,

You are right. I am actually in a blended program (part online/part face to face). Still, I see your wisdom and I do wish that I had found an online program. For ALL other education, I far prefer face to face and lecture that allows you to have class discussions. Nursing school is different though, and in my case it would have been better to go online.

Thank you for your reply and for speaking in a professional and understanding manner.

[reluctantrn]

Dear ixchel, BSN, RN,

I love your suggestion. I actually sent something similar to this already. I especially love your suggested signature...because that is exactly how I feel. How I wish we could speak the truth. Perhaps this is one of my greatest insights and weaknesses. I am awful at playing the game. I prefer to be authentic all-ways. And if I cannot be, my reaction is to say nothing. Never to lie and pretend something I do not truly feel.

Thanks for the suggestion, it was the same I had already followed and not received a favorable response. But I agree, it is a good way to ask.

I'm fairly sure that they are being very careful what is put 'on-record'. Which is crazy because they know that I am very unlikely to sue. If the situation were different, I would consider it, but it is what it is and for various reasons, it is an extreme and serious last resort for me.

Thank you

[reluctantrn]

Dear Red Kryptonite,

Thank you for pointing out that it is illegal to record without consent. I do not want anyone to do this, for any reason, nursing or otherwise, and then find themselves in serious legal trouble. I believe it is a felony wiretapping charge, could end a very good nurses career.

I won't suck it up and meet with the director though. There are policy's and regulations in place to protect me in that manner. It just takes SO much time and effort. And, I have a very heavy semester with very little time for things like this. Worst case, I finish the class and send a formal letter via registered mail and email, stating that I am withdrawing from the program for personal reasons. Request through FERPA to view my academic records, appeal if necessary, and then go back to school (for me in another area). Then, once I have secured my own personal future, I will invest time in exposing what is happening.

Other resources for students, if you ever find yourself in such a situation or have a grievance that you have been unable to resolve, are:

1) Academic Affairs

2) Student Affairs

3) Ombudsman

4) Mediation department at your institution

Finally, request to meet with the president, even if only for an exit interview, to let them know what happened to you. They may or may not feel it is valid. Many student complaints are not. But, if they do feel it is valid and you can support your position with as much evidence as you can muster, you may make a better situation for those who come after you.

That is the whole reason I made this post in the first place. To hopefully help those who come after me. I realize that it sounds dramatic and angry. I'm OK with that because I am very upset. However, I also realize that this is not the best way to get your message across and I hope that anyone who needs help is able to read between the lines and find some help.

[ixchel]

Dear ixchel, BSN, RN,

I love your suggestion. I actually sent something similar to this already. I especially love your suggested signature...because that is exactly how I feel. How I wish we could speak the truth. Perhaps this is one of my greatest insights and weaknesses. I am awful at playing the game. I prefer to be authentic all-ways. And if I cannot be, my reaction is to say nothing. Never to lie and pretend something I do not truly feel.

Thanks for the suggestion, it was the same I had already followed and not received a favorable response. But I agree, it is a good way to ask.

I'm fairly sure that they are being very careful what is put 'on-record'. Which is crazy because they know that I am very unlikely to sue. If the situation were different, I would consider it, but it is what it is and for various reasons, it is an extreme and serious last resort for me.

Thank you

In any conflict that seems unwavering on both sides, taking responsibility for your own role and allowing the opposing side to have some control is the best way to open the door to respectful dialogue. Without being willing to do this, you can't expect they'll be willing to do the same. I'm a huge believer in being willing to put your guns down first.

Going forward, you are only able to do what it is they are stating is possible. I know you don't like your options but they are unfortunately all you have. It's up to you to make a decision about what is acceptable to you and move forward, and you need to accept the consequences of that decision as being of your own doing. You DO have choices here. You may not like them, but you do.