Does the BSN in 10 apply to all nurses or just RN's and why?

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Does the bsn in 10 apply to all nurses or just rn and why?

3 hours ago, LPNTORN704 said:

No offense but like I said I'm right.now read this comprehensive paragraph smart ?

Why is this change in minimum educational requirements for registered professional nurses an important step in nursing education and the profession? The impetus for this change in minimum educational requirements for registered professional nurses is due in part to the recognition of the increasing complexity of the American health care system. Rapidly expanding technology and procedures place greater demands on nursing competencies. Several recent research studies demonstrate the added value of additional education in relation to improved patient outcomes. The American Association of Colleges of Nursing found that workplaces with baccalaureate-prepared nurses have lower patient mortality rates, lower failure-to-rescue rates and higher proficiency in diagnoses and evaluating nursing interventions. Another study demonstrated that each 10 percent increase in the number of baccalaureate-prepared nurses in the workplace results in a 5 percent decrease in surgical patient deaths. Learn more about the impact of education on nursing practice

Will associate degree and diploma nursing programs be phased out or eliminated? No. The law recognizes the need for and value of the multiple educational paths and entry points into the profession

http://nursing.buffalo.edu/news-events/nurses-report.host.html/content/shared/nursing/articles/nurses-report/posts/bsn-in-10.detail.html

Far as NYS is concerned diploma nursing schools long ceased to exist. IIRC there is only one such program left somewhere upstate.

Basically the profession and more to the point employers (hospitals) made that call. The latter no longer would hire diploma graduates so schools had to make choices. Many such as Saint Vincent's and Beth Israel simply became ADN programs. Others like Flower and Fifth just shut down. On the profession side there was a push to move nursing programs out of hospitals and into colleges. This included the new community colleges which began offering ADN degrees. Both sides could see and or wanted the benefits of having professional nurses with a "well rounded" education which came from attending college.

Spoke with someone working at College of Mount Saint Vincent's nursing program who also had been as Saint Vincent's in Manhattan. Asked her why Saint V's in the Village discontinued their famous and highly regarded diploma program. Reply was quick and short, "no one would hire them".

On another front sometime by the 1960's or 1970's (cannot recall exactly) insurance companies began refusing to pay for care delivered by student nurses. That is the old apprenticeship method of teaching nursing (which was still well entrenched late as the 1950's) where much to a bulk of bedside care was delivered by students or probationary (probies) nurses was out. Facilities were informed insurance would cover care by licensed professional or practical/vocational nurses.

With that big chunk of money gone hospitals found it increasingly expensive to run diploma (or even ADN) nursing programs. More so as states began mandating standard minimum credit distributions for all graduate nurses needed to sit for board exams.

This is how things pretty much rolled across the country. Some states more than others held onto large numbers of diploma programs (Pennsylvania IIRC comes to mind), but overall their numbers have been declining since the 1970's.

For any diploma RN who does not currently hold a NYS license, once BSN in Ten comes fully into effect they will be required to obtain their four year degree within ten years after being granted NYS license.

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5 hours ago, LPNTORN704 said:

Does the bsn in 10 apply to all nurses or just rn and why?

It is a long and complicated/drawn out story, and don't have time right now to sit you down so here are the basics.

LPNs in NYS aren't professional nurses (RNs) so obviously the statue does not apply. Practical nurses have their own educational and licensing requirements totally separate from registered nurses.

As to the "why" this all came about, again it is a *VERY* long story. Much of it is covered here: https://www.nurse.com/blog/2017/12/20/new-york-governor-signs-bsn-in-10-into-law-for-nurses/

Long story short for >60 years (or is it 70?) since a famous (or infamous) white paper was published proposing mandating making the BSN the minimum requirement for entry into the profession there have been raging debates ever since. Hundreds if not thousands of students were told all during nursing school (ADN or diploma programs) that the BSN was soon going to be mandated so they had better make plans. It never happened; with many not only becoming fully licensed RNs but worked entire careers and now are retired (or close to it).

Only one state (North Dakota) made the BSN mandatory, and it soon backtracked. However the "nurses in white coats) as some like to call them never gave up on their goal. If they couldn't get the BSN made mandatory from the top down (via state government laws), there was another way; from the bottom up. That is convince facilities (mainly hospitals) that somehow a BSN prepared nurse brought more to the table than ADN graduates.

In 2013 Linda Aiken, RN. co-authored a study (published in 2014) showing that in many patient care areas hospitals with a higher proportion of BSN prepared nurses had better outcomes. https://www.americansentinel.edu/blog/2014/06/04/how-does-your-nursing-degree-affect-patient-mortality-rates/

https://www.rn.com/headlines-in-health/driving-factors-behind-the-80-percent-bsn-by-2020-initiative/

That study along with some others was behind the push to get hospitals behind increasing their BSN staff. In years that followed across the country places began going with "BSN only" or "BSN preferred" for new grad hires. North Shore-LIJ system (now Northwell) was one in New York, but pretty much all downstate hospitals won't touch a ADN grad (newly licensed or experienced) under most circumstances.

As it relates to New York state the rest just came down to politics. Healthcare is one of the largest employers here (Northwell is the largest private employer in NYS), and the various unions representing nurses and healthcare workers hold considerable political clout. The rest as they say was history. Since hospitals already largely had moved to hiring BSN grads only, and the unions (such as 1199) won protections to see that their members are protected (those graduating from ADN programs given ample time to get their BSN), the state had cover it needed to enact the BSN in Ten. It gave Andrew Cuomo more to brag about that NYS is "at the forefront of progressive legislation" and leading the way in matters of healthcare and so forth.

Finally should point out the one main reason North Dakota's BSN mandate failed was the huge nationwide nursing shortages of the 1980's through a good part of 1990's.

As anyone can tell you while conditions on ground vary locally, there is *NO* shortage of professional nurses (RNs) in NYS or many other parts of the country. In fact if anything for some areas there is a surplus and places are beating back applicants with sticks. This has made it very easy for hospitals to pick and choose. While in the past due to a shortage they had to take any nurse with a license; now thanks to a glut places are free to put in place certain restrictions.

In North Dakota the state found that once their BSN mandate was put into place it made a bad situation worse. That is instead of more BSN nurses (either graduates or bridge programs), ADN or diploma nurses could easily find work in neighboring/other states; and they did.

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16 hours ago, JadedCPN said:

Ahhh ok, that makes much more sense than what you originally said.

Yes, where I'm at they all have the same skill and do the same jobs. I'm not sure how it is where you live

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12 hours ago, DoGoodThenGo said:

It is a long and complicated/drawn out story, and don't have time right now to sit you down so here are the basics.

LPNs in NYS aren't professional nurses (RNs) so obviously the statue does not apply. Practical nurses have their own educational and licensing requirements totally separate from registered nurses.

As to the "why" this all came about, again it is a *VERY* long story. Much of it is covered here: https://www.nurse.com/blog/2017/12/20/new-york-governor-signs-bsn-in-10-into-law-for-nurses/

Long story short for >60 years (or is it 70?) since a famous (or infamous) white paper was published proposing mandating making the BSN the minimum requirement for entry into the profession there have been raging debates ever since. Hundreds if not thousands of students were told all during nursing school (ADN or diploma programs) that the BSN was soon going to be mandated so they had better make plans. It never happened; with many not only becoming fully licensed RNs but worked entire careers and now are retired (or close to it).

Only one state (North Dakota) made the BSN mandatory, and it soon backtracked. However the "nurses in white coats) as some like to call them never gave up on their goal. If they couldn't get the BSN made mandatory from the top down (via state government laws), there was another way; from the bottom up. That is convince facilities (mainly hospitals) that somehow a BSN prepared nurse brought more to the table than ADN graduates.

In 2013 Linda Aiken, RN. co-authored a study (published in 2014) showing that in many patient care areas hospitals with a higher proportion of BSN prepared nurses had better outcomes. https://www.americansentinel.edu/blog/2014/06/04/how-does-your-nursing-degree-affect-patient-mortality-rates/

https://www.rn.com/headlines-in-health/driving-factors-behind-the-80-percent-bsn-by-2020-initiative/

That study along with some others was behind the push to get hospitals behind increasing their BSN staff. In years that followed across the country places began going with "BSN only" or "BSN preferred" for new grad hires. North Shore-LIJ system (now Northwell) was one in New York, but pretty much all downstate hospitals won't touch a ADN grad (newly licensed or experienced) under most circumstances.

As it relates to New York state the rest just came down to politics. Healthcare is one of the largest employers here (Northwell is the largest private employer in NYS), and the various unions representing nurses and healthcare workers hold considerable political clout. The rest as they say was history. Since hospitals already largely had moved to hiring BSN grads only, and the unions (such as 1199) won protections to see that their members are protected (those graduating from ADN programs given ample time to get their BSN), the state had cover it needed to enact the BSN in Ten. It gave Andrew Cuomo more to brag about that NYS is "at the forefront of progressive legislation" and leading the way in matters of healthcare and so forth.

Finally should point out the one main reason North Dakota's BSN mandate failed was the huge nationwide nursing shortages of the 1980's through a good part of 1990's.

As anyone can tell you while conditions on ground vary locally, there is *NO* shortage of professional nurses (RNs) in NYS or many other parts of the country. In fact if anything for some areas there is a surplus and places are beating back applicants with sticks. This has made it very easy for hospitals to pick and choose. While in the past due to a shortage they had to take any nurse with a license; now thanks to a glut places are free to put in place certain restrictions.

In North Dakota the state found that once their BSN mandate was put into place it made a bad situation worse. That is instead of more BSN nurses (either graduates or bridge programs), ADN or diploma nurses could easily find work in neighboring/other states; and they did.

Thank you soooooo sooo much .This really broke it down for me.Makes sense now.

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13 hours ago, DoGoodThenGo said:

Far as NYS is concerned diploma nursing schools long ceased to exist. IIRC there is only one such program left somewhere upstate.

Basically the profession and more to the point employers (hospitals) made that call. The latter no longer would hire diploma graduates so schools had to make choices. Many such as Saint Vincent's and Beth Israel simply became ADN programs. Others like Flower and Fifth just shut down. On the profession side there was a push to move nursing programs out of hospitals and into colleges. This included the new community colleges which began offering ADN degrees. Both sides could see and or wanted the benefits of having professional nurses with a "well rounded" education which came from attending college.

Spoke with someone working at College of Mount Saint Vincent's nursing program who also had been as Saint Vincent's in Manhattan. Asked her why Saint V's in the Village discontinued their famous and highly regarded diploma program. Reply was quick and short, "no one would hire them".

On another front sometime by the 1960's or 1970's (cannot recall exactly) insurance companies began refusing to pay for care delivered by student nurses. That is the old apprenticeship method of teaching nursing (which was still well entrenched late as the 1950's) where much to a bulk of bedside care was delivered by students or probationary (probies) nurses was out. Facilities were informed insurance would cover care by licensed professional or practical/vocational nurses.

With that big chunk of money gone hospitals found it increasingly expensive to run diploma (or even ADN) nursing programs. More so as states began mandating standard minimum credit distributions for all graduate nurses needed to sit for board exams.

This is how things pretty much rolled across the country. Some states more than others held onto large numbers of diploma programs (Pennsylvania IIRC comes to mind), but overall their numbers have been declining since the 1970's.

For any diploma RN who does not currently hold a NYS license, once BSN in Ten comes fully into effect they will be required to obtain their four year degree within ten years after being granted NYS license.

Thank you so much for the explanation. Here in nc they have a diploma rn program one actually they got rid of majority of them.

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Specializes in CPN.
18 hours ago, LPNTORN704 said:

An RN is an RN..An RN with an associates does the same exact thing and has the same skills as an RN with a BSN.

I used to think this way, but now that I'm in an RN to BSN program I would have to disagree (mind you, I only started the program because it's needed on the resume to advance anywhere). I also used to think that my ADN clinicals were the same as a BSN clinical program. Again, I definitely don't think that way anymore. I'm precepting a BSN student and the experiences she has had in clinicals far exceeds what I was provided in my ADN program.

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Specializes in oncology, MS/tele/stepdown.
22 minutes ago, pedi_nurse said:

I used to think this way, but now that I'm in an RN to BSN program I would have to disagree (mind you, I only started the program because it's needed on the resume to advance anywhere). I also used to think that my ADN clinicals were the same as a BSN clinical program. Again, I definitely don't think that way anymore. I'm precepting a BSN student and the experiences she has had in clinicals far exceeds what I was provided in my ADN program.

Exceeds, or is different? Genuine question. The ADN program I turned down to do a BSN program had more clinical hours. They didn't get to go to the university hospitals, so they didn't see certain things, but more clinical hours would have done me a world of good.

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1 hour ago, pedi_nurse said:

I used to think this way, but now that I'm in an RN to BSN program I would have to disagree (mind you, I only started the program because it's needed on the resume to advance anywhere). I also used to think that my ADN clinicals were the same as a BSN clinical program. Again, I definitely don't think that way anymore. I'm precepting a BSN student and the experiences she has had in clinicals far exceeds what I was provided in my ADN program.

Ok didnt know that because here they do the same thing although the adn is going back for their bsn.my friend is an adn in an operating room with bsn nurses.

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Specializes in Pediatrics, Pediatric Float, PICU, NICU.
3 hours ago, LPNTORN704 said:

Yes, where I'm at they all have the same skill and do the same jobs. I'm not sure how it is where you live

It was your grammar and poor spelling/sentence structure that caused the confusion, not the actual content.

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Specializes in CPN.
3 hours ago, Swellz said:

Exceeds, or is different? Genuine question. The ADN program I turned down to do a BSN program had more clinical hours. They didn't get to go to the university hospitals, so they didn't see certain things, but more clinical hours would have done me a world of good.

Both? I may be wrong, but it just seems to me that there is much more involved with the BSN program. Higher expectations for assignments/papers, different clinical experiences (for example, many BSN programs do clinicals within public health), possibly more guidance from faculty. Let's just say that while I'm not advocating for the dissolution of ADN programs, 7 years into this game I agree that the "gold standard" should absolutely be the BSN. And honestly, it pains me to say that. I don't know that I would have become a nurse had I been required to attend a BSN program to begin with. I also take exception to the idea that some may have that ADNs are somehow "less" than a BSN. Clinical experience carries significant weight that shouldn't be discounted in the ADN/BSN debate. However, looking at a BSN new grad and ADN new grad, I can see why more hospitals, etc. are going with BSN.

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Specializes in CPN.
4 hours ago, Swellz said:

Exceeds, or is different? Genuine question. The ADN program I turned down to do a BSN program had more clinical hours. They didn't get to go to the university hospitals, so they didn't see certain things, but more clinical hours would have done me a world of good.

That's interesting there were more clinical hours in the ADN program.

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16 minutes ago, pedi_nurse said:

Both? I may be wrong, but it just seems to me that there is much more involved with the BSN program. Higher expectations for assignments/papers, different clinical experiences (for example, many BSN programs do clinicals within public health), possibly more guidance from faculty. Let's just say that while I'm not advocating for the dissolution of ADN programs, 7 years into this game I agree that the "gold standard" should absolutely be the BSN. And honestly, it pains me to say that. I don't know that I would have become a nurse had I been required to attend a BSN program to begin with. I also take exception to the idea that some may have that ADNs are somehow "less" than a BSN. Clinical experience carries significant weight that shouldn't be discounted in the ADN/BSN debate. However, looking at a BSN new grad and ADN new grad, I can see why more hospitals, etc. are going with BSN.

Proof please. Thank you.

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