That is, more sciences/maths in addition to the microbiology/college algebra that is required of us to take to enter most nursing programs?
I find that nursing tends to be very easy to get into in terms of prerequisites and the laxity of GPA requirements. The problem with that is that we find that nursing programs don't necessarily attract the "cream of the crop"...it's almost like anyone can get into it (might not finish/may struggle to get through, but at the very least you can get in)
Another concern is that many nursing students struggle with basic math. So many nursing students don't understand dosage calculations...we were taught dosage under the dimensional analysis model. I took chemistry before changing my major to nursing and took AP chem in high school so dosage problems were a piece of cake to me because I already understood dimensional analysis and conversion. So many of my classmates (and many of the students that come to AllNurses for help) genuinely don't understand unit conversion and it's very telling. For many nursing students, their first exposure to unit conversion and long format calculations is through dosage calc.
One could even say that requiring chemistry/biology prior to nursing can foster a more thorough understanding of pharmacology and cellular function? Not saying we need to have physician-level knowledge of these subjects, but requiring a little more of nursing students can't hurt.
Not only did I make A's in my hard science prerequisites, I had an average of 100 in many of them. Math and science comes to me so easily that I would be irritated with myself for missing one question on a test. I was not a person who was worried about not getting into nursing school, my grades and test scores were stellar.
That being said, nursing school was no easier for me than it was for the majority of my classmates. Learning how to be a real nurse, both on the floor, and in a CVICU, has not been easier for me than anybody else I work with. I have felt (and looked) like an idiot way more times than I've been the smart one.
Which is okay, I don't expect to be an expert at something I'm still new at. But, based on my own experience, I am not convinced that more math or hard science prerequisites would end up producing better nurses.
Not sure where you heard that Micro/College Algebra were all the programs require. My program required Eng 101, Biology, A/P 1 and 2, Microbiology, Chemistry, Psych 101 and a 100 level math. I think that's all. Also we have Lifespan development and English 102 as coreq requirements but most of us took them beforehand so as to not need to take them during the actual program. My friend with a 3.2 GPA and a 78 on the teas was not accepted. I would say it is rigorous enough. As for my impression of my cohort, I feel that everybody is capable and competent to go through the program. It may come easier to some than others, but there is nobody that I feel is not prepared or competent to make it through.
I live in Arizona and my program was competitive. I got in the first try, but not everybody who applied this term was accepted and there is NO waiting list. I know some people who would kill to be on a waiting list right now instead of just hearing no.
This was directed at FutureRN101 (I forgot to hit quote).
I don't think changing the prerequisites would make better nurses. I think that allowing nursing students to have more hands on time with real live patients would make better and more prepared nurses.
I think the OP has a very valid point. We have had many flunk out and the math skills of some of my classmates was atrocious. Not to say they won't be good nurses but I'd definitely double check their calculations! If entrance requirements at a particular school are lax, it's not doing students who aren't prepared for the challenge any favor to let them in and have them rack up debt only to flunk out.
I think students need more clinical hours and less nursing theory/fluff. Unfortunately, due to liability reasons, students' opportunities for learning are extremely limited.
I am finishing up my pre-reqs now and all the nursing schools I'm applying to require bio, chemistry, a&p I and II, and micro for sciences. Math wise, they require algebra and statistics... That is totally the norm for all the nursing schools I've looked at.
Specializes in EDUCATION;HOMECARE;MATERNAL-CHILD; PSYCH.
The problem with that is that we find that nursing programs don't necessarily attract the "cream of the crop"...it's almost like anyone can get into it (might not finish/may struggle to get through, but at the very least you can get in)
I agree with the OP. Most "FOR-PROFIT" schools actually target students with basic Math and English deficits because these students will fail out while these scam schools get their money.
I had extensive education in cell bio and chem prior to changing my major to nursing and transferring to a different University. I really feel that dimensional analysis was key in med calculations, and the understanding of cellular function and physiology helped me to be successful in A & P, Pathophys and Pharm. I needed to put in much less time studying than some in my cohort for those subjects. (not that that makes me better than anyone else!! I had different types of challenges!!)
While I don't think a more rigorous pre-req system would necessarily equate to turning out "better" nurses at the bedside, I do feel like a little more science could help nursing students be successful in their programs and would increase pass rates. Many of the schools in this region have an "allied health" pre-req curriculum for pre-nursing, dental hygiene, surg tech, and rad techs that is considerably different from the basics that pre-med, pre-dent, and other science majors take during their first two years. While I hesitate to use the term "watered down" that is the opinion of some of the local University administrators.
The courses are challenging but they're definitely different. Of the transfer students in my cohort who completed pre reqs through this style of curriculum, we started with 10 and ended with 2 actually making it through the core portion of nursing school without repeating due to class failures or dropping completely. (We are just completing our final practicum now and are done with classes). Anecdotal evidence at best, but that's where my position comes from. This is a very interesting discussion!
i felt the pre-reqs were more difficult than actual nursing school. I will also say that microbiology and advanced A&P were two of the most beneficial classes I've ever taken. They actually improved my nursing practice - particularly microbiology.
It depends on the school. Some schools, like for profit ones, let anyone in, regardless of math skills. Then they struggle and flunk out and owe lots of money. I go to a community college. I had to take the accuplacer last year when I reentered to find out my reading and math skills. I was lacking in the algebra area so I took remedial classes. I took algebra I and II. Then I did college algebra over the summer. When I took the Teas test this past spring there was nothing harder than algebra I on it and I'm finding dosage calculations to be pretty much algebra I also. There has not been any interpreting of graphs which is what my college algebra class was. Trying to decide which equation went with which graph and what it means.
Sciences, I took A&P I and II, micro, advanced physiology. I also took psych and soc. I know they are not hard sciences but they were still prereqs. I got A's in absolutely everything except micro which I got a B.
To get into the RN program at my school you need all A's in the prereqs they look at. 1 B will get you in the LPN program. It is super competitive. My ADN program is more competitive than the local BSN programs. I know I could have taken a chem class but my advanced physiology class had a lot of chemistry in it and I did fine.
So my question to you is, what else would you add in there? What other hard science classes should be a prereq? I'm only on my third week in the program but I am not really seeing anything that hasn't been covered a whole lot in my prereqs yet. My advanced physiology class is going to help me huge with pharm but I was also a pharmacy tech for a long time so I kinda understand what drug is for what. But understanding the delivery process is what I will be learning in that class. I feel like my prereqs built a solid foundation for what I will be doing.
SubSippi
911 Posts
Not only did I make A's in my hard science prerequisites, I had an average of 100 in many of them. Math and science comes to me so easily that I would be irritated with myself for missing one question on a test. I was not a person who was worried about not getting into nursing school, my grades and test scores were stellar.
That being said, nursing school was no easier for me than it was for the majority of my classmates. Learning how to be a real nurse, both on the floor, and in a CVICU, has not been easier for me than anybody else I work with. I have felt (and looked) like an idiot way more times than I've been the smart one.
Which is okay, I don't expect to be an expert at something I'm still new at. But, based on my own experience, I am not convinced that more math or hard science prerequisites would end up producing better nurses.