Do you need all those degrees?

[dnsonthego]

Where I work, we have a trend of nurses obtaining multiple degrees after obtaining basic nursing training and their RN license. At a management meeting this issue came up about why nurses are going for all these degrees (MSN, MPH, MBA, MPA, MHA, DNP, JD, Dr.P.H. etc.). I have colleagues that have two or three graduate degrees. I frequently see these degreed nurses working in staff, charge or lower level non clinical work (case management/discharge planning). The degree(s) did not get them far from the bedside.

An attending physician made a point that being a manager or charge nurse does not require an MBA degree. Another doctor stated that his son works at a Fortune 100 company in a significant job with a bachelor level education.

The impression I got is that the attendees saw this degree mania in nursing as silly and wasteful. The word wasteful was used as the facility provides tuition reimbursement.

Another comment was made that these degrees are mostly online degrees or from low standard/open enrollment schools. There appears to be true to this statement.

A department head then said why can't nurses be happy to be a nurse. If they want to be managers or executive, move on so that nurses who want to nurse can be at the bedside. He then discussed a nurse colleague who has two management degrees who is a bedside nurse and a nursing supervisor who has four graduate degrees (she has a master's in nursing to be an adult health nurse practitioner, a master's in public health, a master's in business and a master's in community health). The sad part is that the 4 graduate degree nursing supervisor could not prepare a report detailing an major event that occurred when she was on duty (she asked me to rewrite what she had written so as to not be embarrassed by her poor language skills--English is her second language). About twenty years ago I worked with a nurse who went to school to get a master's degree in journalism. She wanted out of nursing and saw journalism as her ticket. Unfortunately, when she graduated she could not locate a job that paid. She did not investigate the need to pay her dues in the competitive field of journalism. End result, she ended up staying in nursing. The impression we had of her then was she was a nice lady who was misguided and did not investigate what awaits graduates of her program. I hope by now she had paid off her student loans.

Back to the discussion...I did not respond about this issue during the meeting as I myself have mixed feelings about getting degrees especially since I do not see the degree holder having benefited from the education. Writing skills are still poor, professional presentation and presence is lacking and analytic skills are weak. When I interact with my degreed colleagues, I think to myself, what has all this schooling taught you?

In my day, you entered nursing via a diploma or associated degree and learned your trade on the floor. A degree (BSN or MSN)was needed to be a nursing director or nursing professor. I really never understood why nurses undertook going for these degrees since they stayed in nursing anyway. I know a few nurses over the years who thought that an MBA/MPH would get them into corporate America/government position only to be heartbroken that the degree got them nowhere. Having an MBA in marketing or Finance really isn't applicable to nursing even at the highest levels. Adding to this is the fact that if you do not practice these fields or specialty areas, you are not competent but rather have a degree as a trophy.

As for the DNP, I understand the logic of wanting to be like pharmacy and physical therapy, but even with a clinical doctorate degree, they are still a pharmacist or a physical therapist. If it hasn't elevated these other professions, what makes us think it will elevate us? Where I work, the culture of not calling these degree holders "doctor" prevails.

Anyway, I wanted to hear what other nurses think about the degree proliferation in nursing. Do you think this is a good trend or is this just breeding more discontented nurses who will continue to dream about careers they will never have?

[canigraduate]

You need to re-read the OPs initial post. Much of it has to do with non-nursing degrees and the thought that since these nurses are not actively profiting from these degrees that they wasted their time and money, as if learning and becoming educated was not a reward within itself.

You have posted the phrase, “useless degrees” before, well what is a “useless degree?” Do YOU determine if a degree holds value to the individual? Must the degree holder submit an essay to you to prove that they are worthy of a degree and that degree holds value?

Selected quotes from the OP,

WHAT IS WRONG WITH WANTING TO BE A REGISTERED NURSE WITH A COLLEGE DEGREE!?!?!?

WHAT IS WRONG WITH HAVING A NON-NURSING COLLEGE DEGREE?

Why do you people care what someone else does with their time and their money? Are you and the OP insecure of your own educational achievements?

Asystole, I think I love you.

And I have admired your screen name for years!

[dudette10, MSN, RN]

I've read up to page three, and so far, it seems I'll be going against the grain here when it comes to what is needed in a nursing management position.

I have been told I'm a pretty damn good bedside nurse and teacher to students. However, I also have enough self-awareness that I know I would absolutely suck as a manager. I do not have the personality for it. I get very easily annoyed by coworker whining. The NM on one of the units I work on has gotten a lot of backlash about his promotion to NM, mainly because his bedside practice was somewhat lacking. In my opinion, it was a good thing that he was promoted because as an NM, he has the personality for it. He is able to deescalate patient situations, take scheduling complaints in stride and attempt to fix them, and appoint the right people as resources to us bedside nurses. He never loses his cool, and coworkers walk away from him feeling better about the situation than they were when they approached him. He is also able to make the hard decisions that are necessary and not be affected by naysaying. That is a talent that is very different from bedside nursing, and he is finally in a nursing position that plays to his talents.

As for degree inflation, I couldn't care less how much a person goes to school or how many degrees she has. That's her prerogative and her wallet. Some people like school! To flaunt it as if it makes someone automatically a better nurse than another nurse in the same position is one thing. To have it, use it, and share it is another thing all together.

[dudette10, MSN, RN]

Education for education's sake is a virtue I would hope to see in any clinician.

Nursing has a reputation for extremely poor managers. I think it is because people are selected for management because of their bedside ability, not their management abilities.

I've seen too many managers who don't know the first thing about how to be a manager but were promoted because they were good at their subordinate's job. These people make good instructors and clinical resources. The ability to manage people is a very different set of abilities. It is nice when a good manager also knows their subordinates jobs to the point of being fully competent to wade back into it. It is not a requirement.

Agree wholeheartedly.

[hope3456, ASN, RN]

I think many people are going for graduate degrees out of a sense of insecurity and because they worry about the future. Healthcare is no longer a career of perpetual job security like 10 years ago. It seems if the country as a whole suffers ("job growth" = new Burger King jobs) healthcare suffers too. It seems the situation is the worst in the large cities where you have easy access to advanced degrees but limited access to jobs due to competition. Large cities have a localized glut of healthcare professionals but this is unique just to the largest metropolitan areas. Rural areas have shortages of healthcare professionals except nobody wants to live there. Sophisticated young women want to live and practice in New York City or LA, they don't want to live in Pecatonica, IL, even though Pacatonica is hiring new grads, no questions asked, as long as you have a BSN. When you look at the interior of the country, away from the biggest metropolitan areas, LPN nurses and associate degree nurses still dominate the job market, they are in demand and employable. I don't know what to say, if you live in NYC or Chicago or LA and you need a graduate degree to find an entry level job then maybe you can consider moving to another part of the country? Because in that kind of job climate even a graduate degree may not save your skin?[/quote'] Good point concerto. I cringe reading about the new grads- BSN or ADN - who can't find a job or are underemployed. It does seem most of them are in the more "attractive" locales.

I'm I the boonies and ADN new grads( many who are right out of high school) get jobs in ICU and ER.

And then after a year or two, they can move on to the city where they can then find a higher paying, more lucrative position since they have "experience" and maybe a BSN from a diploma mill - while the BSN who graduated from the local program is repeatedly getting rejected since they do not have acute care experience.

Is this not a slap across the face to nursing education?

[Asystole RN]

Good point concerto. I cringe reading about the new grads- BSN or ADN - who can't find a job or are underemployed. It does seem most of them are in the more "attractive" locales.

I'm I the boonies and ADN new grads( many who are right out of high school) get jobs in ICU and ER.

And then after a year or two, they can move on to the city where they can then find a higher paying, more lucrative position since they have "experience" and maybe a BSN from a diploma mill - while the BSN who graduated from the local program is repeatedly getting rejected since they do not have acute care experience.

Is this not a slap across the face to nursing education?

Has about 0% to do with nursing education and everything to do with attempting to grab a job in saturated markets.

[Concerto_in_C, BSN, RN]

I think it's a little naive to say that four year degrees in the likes of journalism, fashion design, philosophy, etc. are never a waste. Of course they can be a waste. They can be a huge waste of time and money. For the vast majority of grads, these degrees do not result in gainful employment. How can that not be a waste?

A degree earned for the love of the subject is never a waste, but I've been a college student forever, (I graduated from an art school in 1999) and I never met a humanities or arts student who was pursuing the degree out of the love for education. From the beginning, everybody had a definite plan for having a job title (e.g. "art director") and making money. They could even tell me exactly how much an art director was making at the time. Doubtless many people were disappointed. Most liberal arts programs publish statistics on their alumni and how they do in the future. Those statistics have always been troubling, even back in 1999 when the economy was hot. I think for my arts school in 1999, they estimated 10 years after graduation only 50% of the alumni were still pursuing the original career direction, but of those probably a small percentage was successful in terms of making enough money to survive. You can be an average nurse and make money, but there are no average commercial artists. Average artists live with mom and they have no income...

[nursel56]

It's very difficult for me to accept the argument that more degrees (and I reject the framing of the argument as "education equals the latest recommended degree incarnation from the AACN et al) will result in nurses "finally being viewed as professionals" when we hear about facilities taking chairs away from the nurses station. being required to call an MD in the middle of the night to ask if it's OK to give 2 50mg tabs of the same drug with an order for 100mg, forced to take seminars that have more in common with 1950s Charm Schools than respectful content geared toward professionals, and similar demeaning policies recounted here frequently.

It would be nice if the ivory tower folks would at least familiarize themselves with both the opinions of (many nurses are fine with the "trade" description) and the actual working environment of real nurses if they insist on declaring that only their agenda will cause changes in the minds of other professions and the public.

[Asystole RN]

It's very difficult for me to accept the argument that more degrees (and I reject the framing of the argument as "education equals the latest recommended degree incarnation from the AACN et al) will result in nurses "finally being viewed as professionals" when we hear about facilities taking chairs away from the nurses station. being required to call an MD in the middle of the night to ask if it's OK to give 2 50mg tabs of the same drug with an order for 100mg, forced to take seminars that have more in common with 1950s Charm Schools than respectful content geared toward professionals, and similar demeaning policies recounted here frequently.

It would be nice if the ivory tower folks would at least familiarize themselves with both the opinions of (many nurses are fine with the "trade" description) and the actual working environment of real nurses if they insist on declaring that only their agenda will cause changes in the minds of other professions and the public.

Employer conditions, which is what you described, has little to nothing to do with what makes a profession a profession. Besides, name me the profession with ideal super-awesome working conditions where they have zero BS in 100% of the employers? Please tell me where this magical profession is!

Not sure what this has to do with nursing and college degrees though...

[Pudnluv, ASN, RN]

It's very difficult for me to accept the argument that more degrees (and I reject the framing of the argument as "education equals the latest recommended degree incarnation from the AACN et al) will result in nurses "finally being viewed as professionals" when we hear about facilities taking chairs away from the nurses station. being required to call an MD in the middle of the night to ask if it's OK to give 2 50mg tabs of the same drug with an order for 100mg, forced to take seminars that have more in common with 1950s Charm Schools than respectful content geared toward professionals, and similar demeaning policies recounted here frequently."

I respectfully disagree. Requiring a bachelor's degree as a minimum standard would increase the public perception of nursing as a profession. Facilities treat nurses the way they do because nurses are regarded as nothing more than worker bees and not the highly trained professionals that we are. Nurses are their own worst enemies because too many times they lie down and take this kind of treatment. I'm sorry, but two year degrees do not carry the same amount of respect as having a four year degree. (And I say this as a nurse with only a 2 year degree.) By standardizing education for nurses, the respect for the profession as awhole increases. This will translate into better treatment of nurses by the facilities they work for.

[Concerto_in_C, BSN, RN]

If I have to sign the white board ever time I round on the patient and the physicians can **** on the board as well as the other rules in the unit then I find it hard to believe the employer sees me as a professional. Another important symbol: clocking in on the time clock. Historically speaking, having to clock-in puts you in the same league as a factory laborer who assembles cars for Henry Ford (untrustworthy, needs to be monitored via the clock system). ..Granted, those seem to be small issues, but historically speaking they have great significance because companies use such devices to distinguish the professionals from the common street mob...

[nursel56]

Employer conditions, which is what you described, has little to nothing to do with what makes a profession a profession. Besides, name me the profession with ideal super-awesome working conditions where they have zero BS in 100% of the employers? Please tell me where this magical profession is!

Not sure what this has to do with nursing and college degrees though...

I would not use the term "employer conditions" to describe what I was talking about but even a strict interpretation of the term would have an effect in my opinion...things such as punching time clocks as Concerto mentioned really have an effect on attitudes and perceptions of people in the workplace. I don't believe all corporate BS is of equal significance, and while side by side comparisons with other professionals is usually fruitless, the "would the physicians tolerate that?" question can apply here....I commented on it because someone brought it up earlier in the thread.

[nursel56]

I respectfully disagree. Requiring a bachelor's degree as a minimum standard would increase the public perception of nursing as a profession. Facilities treat nurses the way they do because nurses are regarded as nothing more than worker bees and not the highly trained professionals that we are. Nurses are their own worst enemies because too many times they lie down and take this kind of treatment. I'm sorry, but two year degrees do not carry the same amount of respect as having a four year degree. (And I say this as a nurse with only a 2 year degree.) By standardizing education for nurses, the respect for the profession as awhole increases. This will translate into better treatment of nurses by the facilities they work for.

I wonder what evidence there is that leads you to state that requiring a BSN will change anyone's perceptions

The OP provided anecdotal evidence that it will not accomplish that goal when they wrote that 2 doctors and a department head regarded them as wasteful.

When the author of an article in an ANA publication identified key reasons for the repeal of the North Dakota BSN ETP law in 2003 lack of demand from the public was cited as one of the major reasons.

We may disagree but I hope to be respectful, too.