Where I work, we have a trend of nurses obtaining multiple degrees after obtaining basic nursing training and their RN license. At a management meeting this issue came up about why nurses are going for all these degrees (MSN, MPH, MBA, MPA, MHA, DNP, JD, Dr.P.H. etc.). I have colleagues that have two or three graduate degrees. I frequently see these degreed nurses working in staff, charge or lower level non clinical work (case management/discharge planning). The degree(s) did not get them far from the bedside.
An attending physician made a point that being a manager or charge nurse does not require an MBA degree. Another doctor stated that his son works at a Fortune 100 company in a significant job with a bachelor level education.
The impression I got is that the attendees saw this degree mania in nursing as silly and wasteful. The word wasteful was used as the facility provides tuition reimbursement.
Another comment was made that these degrees are mostly online degrees or from low standard/open enrollment schools. There appears to be true to this statement.
A department head then said why can't nurses be happy to be a nurse. If they want to be managers or executive, move on so that nurses who want to nurse can be at the bedside. He then discussed a nurse colleague who has two management degrees who is a bedside nurse and a nursing supervisor who has four graduate degrees (she has a master's in nursing to be an adult health nurse practitioner, a master's in public health, a master's in business and a master's in community health). The sad part is that the 4 graduate degree nursing supervisor could not prepare a report detailing an major event that occurred when she was on duty (she asked me to rewrite what she had written so as to not be embarrassed by her poor language skills--English is her second language). About twenty years ago I worked with a nurse who went to school to get a master's degree in journalism. She wanted out of nursing and saw journalism as her ticket. Unfortunately, when she graduated she could not locate a job that paid. She did not investigate the need to pay her dues in the competitive field of journalism. End result, she ended up staying in nursing. The impression we had of her then was she was a nice lady who was misguided and did not investigate what awaits graduates of her program. I hope by now she had paid off her student loans.
Back to the discussion...I did not respond about this issue during the meeting as I myself have mixed feelings about getting degrees especially since I do not see the degree holder having benefited from the education. Writing skills are still poor, professional presentation and presence is lacking and analytic skills are weak. When I interact with my degreed colleagues, I think to myself, what has all this schooling taught you?
In my day, you entered nursing via a diploma or associated degree and learned your trade on the floor. A degree (BSN or MSN)was needed to be a nursing director or nursing professor. I really never understood why nurses undertook going for these degrees since they stayed in nursing anyway. I know a few nurses over the years who thought that an MBA/MPH would get them into corporate America/government position only to be heartbroken that the degree got them nowhere. Having an MBA in marketing or Finance really isn't applicable to nursing even at the highest levels. Adding to this is the fact that if you do not practice these fields or specialty areas, you are not competent but rather have a degree as a trophy.
As for the DNP, I understand the logic of wanting to be like pharmacy and physical therapy, but even with a clinical doctorate degree, they are still a pharmacist or a physical therapist. If it hasn't elevated these other professions, what makes us think it will elevate us? Where I work, the culture of not calling these degree holders "doctor" prevails.
Anyway, I wanted to hear what other nurses think about the degree proliferation in nursing. Do you think this is a good trend or is this just breeding more discontented nurses who will continue to dream about careers they will never have?
This has to be the only profession where being more educated is looked down upon.
AGREED.
Absolutely no one has the right to question the number or type of degrees a person has unless he or she is the one paying for it. If someone has an ADN and that's the only degree they want, good for them. If a person is hooked on learning and retires with 18 masters degrees and 18 doctorates, good for them. This has got to be one of the more disgusting, offensive concepts I've heard in a very long time.
Or perhaps it is more offensive to see a predominantly female workforce actually learn to think for themselves and be..... What's that word?..... Educated?
This touched a raw spot for me. I have a degree in art. It was NOT a waste of time. I love art. Just because I don't have a career in it anymore does not make it worthless OR anyone else's business. I do not have any type of gainful employment in any art field. SO WHAT? I am also looking into getting a business degree. Why? Because I want to understand business and don't. I learn better with a structured curriculum than I do on my own. I am not a trust fund baby. I am actually trailer trash and the first in my family to graduate college. I work for each degree I get and I am still paying for the first one. I have a diploma now but I want a BSN. I may go as far as MSN, because I like to expand my practice and learn new things. I just like to learn. I don't understand why that is a big deal. If other people want to remain ignorant, good for them. Just don't be the crab in the bucket that pulls down people like me that realized ignorance isn't bliss, it sucks. PS - If I want to be a fry cook, why does that make me less because I will be an educated fry cook? What if I just like to read philosophy over french fries?[/quote']
Gen Y doesn't have to luxury of pursuing education for pure enlightenment unlike the Baby Boomers who didn't face crippling amount of debt and could work a low-wage job part time to pay for their tuition. Unfortunately, we have to worry about costs, ROIs, interests, etc, something that the previous generation(s) didn't have to think about. There is no shame in wanting a nice, middle-class lifestyle after years of schooling and thousands of dollars of student loans. What you are suggesting is idealistic at best. In reality, one MUST weigh the pros with the cons and at the end of the day, Maslow's heiarchy puts basic human needs over self-actualization every single time.[/quote']
I am gen X and we did have the same concerns. In fact, it's the reason why I didn't finish school when I attempted it after I graduated high school. I was going to become a psychologist, and after an amazing professor had us do a structured self-analysis, I realized psychology wasn't for me. I knew I'd have way too many transference issues and I was too broken myself. I started he next semester, but realized I was way too broke, and not nearly motivated enough to stay in school. The expense of it is why I dropped out. I had $7k in debt for only 1 unfinished year in school. That was Spring 1999.
I definitely agree it's gotten worse, though. I'm a very lucky girl to be finishing up with only $12,500 debt this go 'round.
I'll be honest and admit that sometimes I look at the volume of letters behind a person's name and wonder if their hand gets tired signing it all. lol But I will say that for me, I know that if I earned it, I'll feel quite proud to add the letters as well. It's not a snobby need for status, but more a "I did this!" level of excitement for myself. Kind of like a little one going, "look what I can do!" It's about personal satisfaction for me, not attention, so you will never see me judging a person for having so many degrees, or acknowledging them as part of heir credentials.
What you will see me judging, though, is a doctor who feels it is necessary to belittle those nurses who might enjoy pursuing higher degrees. I think HE is the one with self esteem issues if he feels the needs to not have diversely educated people around him. (I don't remember if the OP specified whether the doctor was male, but I figured it might be a safe assumption.)
PMFB, do you find the majority of your time on message boards is spent arguing with people?
OP, can I ask why it is your business, or the business of the physician you spoke with, how many degrees your co-workers have or what they choose to do with them? Education is a good thing, and if bedside nurses want to get higher-level nursing degrees or degrees in other areas that interest them who are you or any of us to judge them for it? As someone who honestly enjoys learning and school, and who will probably be taking classes of one sort or another for the rest of my life, I really do find your post pretty offensive.
It depends where you live and work, and how you intend to use the degree. There are far too many online schools these days, so anyone pursuing a degree needs to do their research carefully.
My BSN is the mandatory requirement for RNs, and there are few online options for BSN or Masters Degrees where I live. Traditional in class learning is the main route. I'm glad I have a degree because the degree provides more options aside from nursing.
I am considering areas such as OT, PT, and teaching English, all of which require a Bachelors Degree as these are at the graduate level. However, if there is no market for the added skillset, then a degree will be an expensive piece of paper.
Maybe she wants to differentiate herself from the MSNs who don't have a bachelors degree.
A BSN is not a prerequisite to a MSN, although traditionally only the highest level of educational achievement is cited.
I have run into many professionals who intentionally cite lower level educational credentials for various reasons. Physicians who put down BSN/MSN, physicians who put down various PhDs along with their MD, NPs who cite MBAs along with their DNPs etc etc.
There is nothing wrong with citing lower level educational achievements.
A few comments on the OP's posting, which might be a little lost in the discussion at this point.
I think you attended a poorly focused meeting and you have a quite a few frustrations you express here that are on a plethora of vaguely related topics.
First off, I'm not tech savvy enough to know how to do the multi-quote thing so I'll place the OP's quotes in bold italics.
Another doctor stated that his son works at a Fortune 100 company in a significant job with a bachelor level education.
True, maybe, the case of one doctor's son who works in an unspecified position at some unspecified company in an unspecified position is not a valid argument.
The word wasteful was used as the facility provides tuition reimbursement.
This is a potentially significant argument. Your facility may want to toughen its tuition reimbursement standards. They may want to come up with a list of colleges they will/will not cover. My facility does.
The sad part is that the 4 graduate degree nursing supervisor could not prepare a report detailing an major event that occurred when she was on duty (she asked me to rewrite what she had written so as to not be embarrassed by her poor language skills--English is her second language).
Seriously, this is the example you provide? I'm verbally fluent in a second language, but write like an elementary school student. Your supervisor may have slid by in an English language course with poor standards, or maybe she had a hard-working friend that helped her proof all her work, or maybe her degrees are from a non-English speaking program. I must agree I do not know how people with higher degrees continue to write so poorly, but I do not believe this is exclusive to the practice of nursing and a more prevalent issue in the US.
About twenty years ago I worked with a nurse who went to school to get a master's degree in journalism.
Great topic here (about degrees in careers that are difficult to break into), not sure how this fit into the topic.
If it hasn't elevated these other professions, what makes us think it will elevate us?
I guess I don't see how increasing their educational requirements has not elevated PT, OT, ST and Pharmacy. I would be thrilled to have their professional model and cannot believe this has not affected their take home pay. Whether or not they are called "doctor" is just not important to the conversation in my book. I'm still deciding if NPs need DNP, like my opinion counts anyway, but standardizing entry-level nursing to BSN is so past its time. Speaking as an ADN graduate who finally is about to complete my BSN . . .
Specializes in burn ICU, SICU, ER, Trauma Rapid Response.
standardizing entry-level nursing to BSN is so past its time. Speaking as an ADN graduate who finally is about to complete my BSN . . .
Leaving aside the actual issue of ADN vs BSN for entry and commenting only on your position. Do you not see the irony of advocating to close the path that you took into nursing for others? Seems like sort of a "I got mine, screw the rest of you" mindset.
Leaving aside the actual issue of ADN vs BSN for entry and commenting only on your position. Do you not see the irony of advocating to close the path that you took into nursing for others? Seems like sort of a "I got mine, screw the rest of you" mindset.
PMFB-RN, I will happily engage you on this topic elsewhere, I hate to further hijack the OP's thread.
ixchel
4,547 Posts
AGREED.
Absolutely no one has the right to question the number or type of degrees a person has unless he or she is the one paying for it. If someone has an ADN and that's the only degree they want, good for them. If a person is hooked on learning and retires with 18 masters degrees and 18 doctorates, good for them. This has got to be one of the more disgusting, offensive concepts I've heard in a very long time.
Or perhaps it is more offensive to see a predominantly female workforce actually learn to think for themselves and be..... What's that word?..... Educated?