911 Debrief

Specialties School

Published

Can I debrief this situation please?

I had a student come into my office. Audible wheeze, stating she needed to use her inhaler. Thought it was in her backpack, not there. No inhaler at school. Called mom, left a message, called dad, told him we needed an inhaler. She started to hyperventilate (RR 56). 02 from 98-100, congestion in the lower lobes. Pale coloring, no blue color though.

Called dad back, he said he was 15-20 minutes away. Told him I would continue to monitor but if she got worse I would need to call 911.

She was unable to talk in between breaths. And pantomimed that she felt her throat was closing. Said she felt light-headed and dizzy and would not, could not slow down her breathing. 02 still fine.

Call 911. EMS comes. Takes VS, they're all fine, O2 is 100. Put her on oxygen take her down. Paramedic gets there does her thing. EMS basically tells dad it's an anxiety attack, not an asthma attack and she'll be OK, EMS says lungs are clear, but she's got a bad cough.

They still take her out on the ambulance to be fully evaluated.

I know I can only go on my assessment and I could not get her calmed down, but I'm second guessing whether I should have called 911 or waited a few minutes until dad got there (not knowing how long it would actually have taken).

I just feel like there wasn't a good decision that I could make. :notworthy:

Specializes in kids.
Well I'll play the contrarian then. This presentation sounds like a panic attack in the setting of mild asthma. Breathing that fast I bet she felt light headed and dizzy! That is a classic symptom of alkalosis (psychologically induced respiratory alkalosis)... I bet she had tingling hands/lips and maybe nausea too. I bet her pCO2 was

Makes me wonder if this patient ended up getting a whif of benzo if the inhaled beta 2 didn't have sufficient psychogenic relief.

Let me bottom line this: SpO2 is far from the top indicator of asthma exacerbation severity and compensation as it is possible to have a near normal SpO2 (92, 94,) in with a moderate or even severe attack given albuterol and low flow O2... BUT... 100% SpO2 without bronchodialators or supplemental O2 does not fit the picture of a zero word dyspnea asthmatic about to crash.

This reminds me of back before I was a RN, was just an EMT, we'd just been given epi pens and called to an "anaphylaxis emergency." I was super excited to use an epi pen. I arrived to a light headed tachypneic tripoded 16 year old with 2 word dyspnea saying she was dying because she was having an allergic reaction, some wheezing... zero signs of anaphylaxis. I didn't give epi. I talked calmly to her, stood down the paramedics, gave low flow O2 to make her feel like she was "getting air," and a slow calming ride to the nearby clinic with no lights or sirens.

But.

I didn't see you patient. You did.

Wow...

I don't doubt that this kid had a bit of resp alk going on. However, in a school nurse clinic we (I am assuming this is universal) don't have the capability to measure pCO2 and pH. And we most often will err on the side of caution with a kid with wheezing/hx of asthma because they can decompensate so quickly. If the student DOES deteriorate and I haven't called rescue, then I have blue, hyperventilating asthmatic kid in my clinic with a stock albuterol inhaler (and some school nurses don't even have this!) and a pulse oximeter. No O2, no steroids, no whiff of benzo, no anything. This was one of the hardest adjustments I had to make when I became a school nurse after spending years as an ER nurse. I know what needs to be done for these kiddos, I just don't have the capability to DO it in my clinic. Hence, the decision to make the call to 911 will happen fast, and sometimes happens in borderline situations.

I think you absolutely did the right thing, OP. I have been in similar situations before as a school nurse and made the same call. Good job!!

I would have loved to have stock albuterol (hah, it wants to auto-correct it to butterball!) in this instance! I kept looking over at everyone else's inhalers and wishing I could use them.

Specializes in Pediatrics Retired.
Wow...

You verbalized what most of us were thinking...:nailbiting:

You verbalized what most of us were thinking...:nailbiting:

Certainly did!:nailbiting:

Again, OP did the right thing.

Specializes in School.

As I read your post it brought to mind the "Great Crawfish Creep Out". A little darling was teased with a crawfish they were dissecting in Science. She "passed out" in the class room and once she got into our office, she had such anxiety she was hyperventilating. Nothing we could say or do helped. My co-worker actually was trying the nice calm voice and explaining how she was causing some issues. Once she said "blood", girl went nuts. We had been in contact with mom and still called 911 due to the severity of the s/s she was exhibiting.

Given my experience and the asthma aspect (my little darling did not have hx of asthma), you did the right thing. IMO

Specializes in Telemetry, Gastroenterology, School Nrs.
Well I'll play the contrarian then. This presentation sounds like a panic attack in the setting of mild asthma. Breathing that fast I bet she felt light headed and dizzy! That is a classic symptom of alkalosis (psychologically induced respiratory alkalosis)... I bet she had tingling hands/lips and maybe nausea too. I bet her pCO2 was

Makes me wonder if this patient ended up getting a whif of benzo if the inhaled beta 2 didn't have sufficient psychogenic relief.

Let me bottom line this: SpO2 is far from the top indicator of asthma exacerbation severity and compensation as it is possible to have a near normal SpO2 (92, 94,) in with a moderate or even severe attack given albuterol and low flow O2... BUT... 100% SpO2 without bronchodialators or supplemental O2 does not fit the picture of a zero word dyspnea asthmatic about to crash.

This reminds me of back before I was a RN, was just an EMT, we'd just been given epi pens and called to an "anaphylaxis emergency." I was super excited to use an epi pen. I arrived to a light headed tachypneic tripoded 16 year old with 2 word dyspnea saying she was dying because she was having an allergic reaction, some wheezing... zero signs of anaphylaxis. I didn't give epi. I talked calmly to her, stood down the paramedics, gave low flow O2 to make her feel like she was "getting air," and a slow calming ride to the nearby clinic with no lights or sirens.

But.

I didn't see you patient. You did.

Really?!?! This is why responding to a "school nurse" post when your specialization is something entirely different, is a bad idea. If the OP had the ability to offer a "whif of benzo" or any other intervention that may be readily available in a hospital setting,( if her assessment called for that) she would have acted accordingly, I'm sure. School nursing is an entirely different beast, when it comes to nursing assessments, care plans, interventions, actions, and follow-up. If you have never been a part of it, there is truly no way you would understand that. What I would hope you do understand is every asthmatic patient is not going to present in a textbook fashion, and even with a "mild attack" where SPO2 is 100% without broncho or O2, things can change in the blink of an eye, quickly resulting in an asthmatic about to crash. The OP absolutely did the right thing.

Specializes in School Nurse.
Really?!?! This is why responding to a "school nurse" post when your specialization is something entirely different, is a bad idea. If the OP had the ability to offer a "whif of benzo" or any other intervention that may be readily available in a hospital setting,( if her assessment called for that) she would have acted accordingly, I'm sure. School nursing is an entirely different beast, when it comes to nursing assessments, care plans, interventions, actions, and follow-up. If you have never been a part of it, there is truly no way you would understand that. What I would hope you do understand is every asthmatic patient is not going to present in a textbook fashion, and even with a "mild attack" where SPO2 is 100% without broncho or O2, things can change in the blink of an eye, quickly resulting in an asthmatic about to crash. The OP absolutely did the right thing.

THIS!!!

I just want to thank you all again! You're all giving my the warm fuzzies! It's wonderful to have such a great group of supportive, knowledgeable people to turn to.

Specializes in School Nursing, Hospice,Med-Surg.

Ok, thank you for these replies because I'm sitting here scratching my head trying to figure out where one obtains this "whif of benzo??"

Specializes in IMC, school nursing.
Ok, thank you for these replies because I'm sitting here scratching my head trying to figure out where one obtains this "whif of benzo??"

:roflmao:

Great Job! You absolutely did the right thing.

You did the right thing. A person with a history of asthma with no inhaler warrants a call to EMS.

+ Add a Comment