It was a quiet Sunday afternoon and I walked into a 97 year old woman's room and saw a strange man sitting on her bed. She was laying supine and he was sitting next to her with his body over hers and intimately rubbing her arm. It didn't look right to me. At one point he leaned over and looked like he was going to kiss her.
I went to the nurse's station and asked the CNA if he was a relative. She said he wasn't, he was from "a church."
I said, he's in there getting too touchy-feely with Mrs. J and she said he had his hand on her leg when she saw him and agreed, he gave her the creeps.
I went into her room and asked if he was a relative and he said no, he was a friend. I said this whole scene is totally inappropriate, totally inappropriate, you need to get off that bed and get your hands off this patient!!! He was pushy an unapologetic and said everyone knows who he is and his wife is visiting down the hall, everyone knows him, the family knows he comes to see her and wants him to touch her and kiss her and let her know she is loved.
It made me sick.
He left and came back with his wife who wanted to know what my problem was and I told her. So, she went and sat on the bed and held this woman's hand (nothing like how her husband was touching the patient). Then the husband said I made him really upset and I shot back that I was pretty upset myself. I said you can't tell me you wouldn't want me to do the same thing if it was your mother and I thought she was being touched inappropriately! He just gave me this defiant look as if he didn't have a clue what I meant.
Him and his wife left and didn't say another word to me.
I wrote a long letter to the DON and plan to call tomorrow. This has me really upset. Just because these people go to church does not make them virtuous. In fact, they were both very arrogant and pushy. Several people told me they are very strange and they do not trust them. Still, I am apparently the only one to call Mr. Pervo on his behavior. My instinct that what he was doing was so strong I was ready to be as fierce as I needed to be to get the point across to him that I wasn't about to tolerate him fondling a 97-year-old woman suffering from dementia.
What should I do about this next time? It looked like an act of sexual assault to me (at the very best it was terribly disrespectful to the patient) and I felt like I should intervene THEN, not stand out in the hall and whisper about it to someone else. I believe if he cared anything about Mrs. J he would have understood her caregiver stepping in to ensure her safety, but he wasn't concerned about that at all. Then again, if he really cared about Mrs. J I can't believe he would have been touching her in such a demeaning way. It was really gross.
You know what a nurse told me today? She happened to be there on the day that creep and I got into it and she said he had come to her hall talking about going and doing something about "that new nurse" because I had just offended him.
The LPN said you mean the head nurse? Our supervising RN of the facility? She's our boss...
She said he went on and on about how I jumped him for being affectionate with Mrs. J, then--and this is what made me want to GAG--he told this nurse, "I hadn't even kissed her yet!"
OMG it gave me the dry heaves! I'm wondering if I should tell the DON this, or if I need to just let it go...yuck. See if he thinks I'm overreacting now!
Beside the male visitor was coming from the church, do we know how they met in the church; perhaps, your patient used to bring him to the church when he was young, or perhaps she was deeply involved in his life. His wife was there, and she was not angry at all & I think the male visitor is more than just coming from the church.
I understand you want to protect your patient's well being; but there is no need to confront with the visitor.
A nurse is not supposed to lose his/her coolness!
Perhaps this guy isn't from the church at all, perhaps him (& his wife) are from the church, perhaps, perhaps, perhaps. The point is, or at least should be.. We as nurses aren't there to necessarily play nicey nice to visitors. We are there to protect our patients/residents. When in doubt (and in this presented situation there is LOTS of doubt), we need to protect the patient/resident every single time. If the visitor gets mad - well tough.
I would be all for beginning this conversation as nicely and tactfully as possible, but if I kept meeting resistance I would throw his orifice out! (Then called DON, etc).
Several have stated that this was not a life threatening event, but it could certainly be considered an abusive event if the nurse had not intervened.
You know what a nurse told me today? She happened to be there on the day that creep and I got into it and she said he had come to her hall talking about going and doing something about "that new nurse" because I had just offended him.
The LPN said you mean the head nurse? Our supervising RN of the facility? She's our boss...
She said he went on and on about how I jumped him for being affectionate with Mrs. J, then--and this is what made me want to GAG--he told this nurse, "I hadn't even kissed her yet!"
OMG it gave me the dry heaves! I'm wondering if I should tell the DON this, or if I need to just let it go...yuck. See if he thinks I'm overreacting now!
My advice: don't tell the DON because it may look like you have a personal vendetta against this man. You did not witness the conversation. Maybe encourage this nurse to tell her side of the story to management without you being there.
Specializes in acute rehab, med surg, LTC, peds, home c.
It was a mistake by getting into an argument with the visitor the way you did.
However, it was definitely a good move to write the DON. I hope you also documented the entire situation and informed the charge nurse.
I disagree. If she saw someone hitting a pt she wouldn't beat around the bush about telling them to stop and get away from the pt. Why should she in this situation, abuse is abuse. There is a time for tact and a time for being direct. I think she did the right thing and I applaud her decisiveness. I have come across some gray areas in my interactions but this does not sound like a gray area.
For example, What do you do about a couple who have been married for 40+ years and are verbally abusive to each other? It is truly sickening to watch. The wife(pt) is whining incessantly and the husband tells her to "shut the f* up right now" and then she goes back at him. Honestly this lady was so annoying that you could hardly blame him. She was one of those pt that could drive Christ himself to the brink of exhaustion and I was afraid the husband would start slapping her. He never did but visitors for the room mate were complaining about the way he talked to her. This was just their family dynamic and probably had been their pattern for years. But it seemed like abuse because the man spoke louder and the woman was in a hospital bed. If you could have heard what the wife was saying you would see that it was an ongoing argument rather than him just berating her. They were nasty to each other. I found this to be a very awkward situation. I ended up just telling the man to cool it and take a break for a while. I also brought it up at care conference because I thought she was at risk for physical abuse. Luckily, being per diem I didn't have to have that assignment all the time.
the administrator agreed that my concern about this being demeaning and disrespectful to the patient was understood and he agreed with me 100% about that, but right now he is not thinking the visitor had sexual motives, though he will be talked to about how touching patients can be perceived by outsiders and suggest he think about how his actions may look next time he is visiting.
hi jo dirt
i have been wondering did the administrator speak to the visitor about the not touching the residents? or did this get swept under the rug? your post opened my eyes to how lucky i am that i do not have to stand up alone for patients rights. i hope your administrator and don to take action and support their staff in this ethically stressful situation.
i am attaching a link to an article about supporting staff in moral distress, i read it and thought you might find it relevant.
healthcare provider moral distress as a leadership challenge, jona's healthcare law, ethics and regulation, oct/dec 2008 available at nursingcenter.com
i have been wondering did the administrator speak to the visitor about the not touching the residents? or did this get swept under the rug? your post opened my eyes to how lucky i am that i do not have to stand up alone for patients rights. i hope your administrator and don to take action and support their staff in this ethically stressful situation.
i am attaching a link to an article about supporting staff in moral distress, i read it and thought you might find it relevant.
healthcare provider moral distress as a leadership challenge, jona's healthcare law, ethics and regulation, oct/dec 2008 available at nursingcenter.com
did you happen to call risk management, or the social worker? they may give you a better idea of how to handle this, and if it gets out of hand, you have covered you butt, by notifying risk management.
I really must be missing something huge here. None of us were there except for the OP. And she wrote this:
It was a quiet Sunday afternoon and I walked into a 97 year old woman's room and saw a strange man sitting on her bed. She was laying supine and he was sitting next to her with his body over hers and intimately rubbing her arm. It didn't look right to me. At one point he leaned over and looked like he was going to kiss her.
By the end of this thread, people are talking about him stroking the patient's leg. I don't see that anywhere. And really, be honest... are all forms of kissing perverse and considered "sexual assault"?? People kiss other people in friendly ways all the time. Several posters asked what set off the anger over just touching someone's arm, but were never answered. I'm just really still very confused. ::scratches head::
I think the opinions here have gotten out of hand because it is about potential "sexual" abuse. People's emotions get out of hand here. Haven't we learned our lesson with the numerous people who have been accused, convicted and jailed for child abuse on what amount to suspicion (and who are then found innocent). Sexual abuse is serious but even here we can't shoot now and ask questions later.
I still maintain that you shouldn't jump to conclusions solely because someone's behavior makes you uncomfortable. In truth, there are many cases of sexual abuse that happen and NO ONE had any idea or any suspicion whatsoever.
This is why institutions needs policies to protect the patients, and not rely on each individual's perception. A blanket policy here would not only protect innocent patients but are make sure visitors who are or aren't guilty don't feel like they're being singled out and to put abusers on alert.
This seems like a good time for your institution to go over the visitation rules. At my facility, which is not long term but we have many end of life patients who are unconscious or not able to think clearly, we often ask the family for a list of approved visitors.
I really must be missing something huge here. None of us were there except for the OP. And she wrote this:
It was a quiet Sunday afternoon and I walked into a 97 year old woman's room and saw a strange man sitting on her bed. She was laying supine and he was sitting next to her with his body over hers and intimately rubbing her arm. It didn't look right to me. At one point he leaned over and looked like he was going to kiss her.
By the end of this thread, people are talking about him stroking the patient's leg. I don't see that anywhere. And really, be honest... are all forms of kissing perverse and considered "sexual assault"?? People kiss other people in friendly ways all the time. Several posters asked what set off the anger over just touching someone's arm, but were never answered. I'm just really still very confused. ::scratches head::
Second paragraph.
I went to the nurse's station and asked the CNA if he was a relative. She said he wasn't, he was from "a church."
I said, he's in there getting too touchy-feely with Mrs. J and she said he had his hand on her leg when she saw him and agreed, he gave her the creeps.
I still maintain that you shouldn't jump to conclusions solely because someone's behavior makes you uncomfortable. In truth, there are many cases of sexual abuse that happen and NO ONE had any idea or any suspicion whatsoever.
I wish more people shared your opinion.
I agree that the based on what was said, the guy was probably being creepy, and documenting it would be the absolute best move. I still think though that losing one's cool and griping at the visitor directly was the wrong move.
I've given it some thought and it occurred to me what bothers me so much about this. So many nurses gripe about when doctors come in and yell at them. And yet people told me, basically, that its' not always possible to keep your cool. If people really believed that, I think we'd see more compassion for yelling doctors.
Unless of course we feel like nurses are held to a different standard?
I'm of the opinion that yelling is pretty much always wrong. No one likes it, we all know how it impedes communication and lessens the results we want. I'm still not sure why so many people rushed to defend it, yet are likely the same ones who are so terribly offended when doctors or patient families yell at them.
I agree that the based on what was said, the guy was probably being creepy, and documenting it would be the absolute best move. I still think though that losing one's cool and griping at the visitor directly was the wrong move.
I've given it some thought and it occurred to me what bothers me so much about this. So many nurses gripe about when doctors come in and yell at them. And yet people told me, basically, that its' not always possible to keep your cool. If people really believed that, I think we'd see more compassion for yelling doctors.
Unless of course we feel like nurses are held to a different standard?
I'm of the opinion that yelling is pretty much always wrong. No one likes it, we all know how it impedes communication and lessens the results we want. I'm still not sure why so many people rushed to defend it, yet are likely the same ones who are so terribly offended when doctors or patient families yell at them.
When a doctor yells at me I generally cower appropriately and go about my way.
These really aren't the same kinds of situations and shouldn't be compared.
Again, you can't tell me you've never lost your cool. Right or wrong.
I don't want to put words in the previous poster's mouth, but I think what some of us are objecting to is, not so much that you lost your cool, but that some posters seem to feel that losing your cool with this guy was right on and the best way to handle it. It's not like you walked in the room and found his hand up her gown (even then, I'm not sure lashing out at him is a good idea). We really don't know what was going on. Yes, we all lose our cool (and sometimes it feels good), but is it the best course of action? While I understand it, I don't recommend it. Using disdain, humiliation, etc., is a way that we try to control each other that I don't find effective or ethical -- even if someone is doing wrong.
Have you ever heard of non-violent communication? It sounds like a crock, but once you get into it really makes sense. If you are focussed on outcomes, it's almost always better to speak compassionately to people who are doing something objectionable or offensive. If you just want to blow off steam to make yourself feel better, that's a whole 'nother story.
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Jo Dirt
3,270 Posts
You know what a nurse told me today? She happened to be there on the day that creep and I got into it and she said he had come to her hall talking about going and doing something about "that new nurse" because I had just offended him.
The LPN said you mean the head nurse? Our supervising RN of the facility? She's our boss...
She said he went on and on about how I jumped him for being affectionate with Mrs. J, then--and this is what made me want to GAG--he told this nurse, "I hadn't even kissed her yet!"
OMG it gave me the dry heaves! I'm wondering if I should tell the DON this, or if I need to just let it go...yuck. See if he thinks I'm overreacting now!