It was a quiet Sunday afternoon and I walked into a 97 year old woman's room and saw a strange man sitting on her bed. She was laying supine and he was sitting next to her with his body over hers and intimately rubbing her arm. It didn't look right to me. At one point he leaned over and looked like he was going to kiss her.
I went to the nurse's station and asked the CNA if he was a relative. She said he wasn't, he was from "a church."
I said, he's in there getting too touchy-feely with Mrs. J and she said he had his hand on her leg when she saw him and agreed, he gave her the creeps.
I went into her room and asked if he was a relative and he said no, he was a friend. I said this whole scene is totally inappropriate, totally inappropriate, you need to get off that bed and get your hands off this patient!!! He was pushy an unapologetic and said everyone knows who he is and his wife is visiting down the hall, everyone knows him, the family knows he comes to see her and wants him to touch her and kiss her and let her know she is loved.
It made me sick.
He left and came back with his wife who wanted to know what my problem was and I told her. So, she went and sat on the bed and held this woman's hand (nothing like how her husband was touching the patient). Then the husband said I made him really upset and I shot back that I was pretty upset myself. I said you can't tell me you wouldn't want me to do the same thing if it was your mother and I thought she was being touched inappropriately! He just gave me this defiant look as if he didn't have a clue what I meant.
Him and his wife left and didn't say another word to me.
I wrote a long letter to the DON and plan to call tomorrow. This has me really upset. Just because these people go to church does not make them virtuous. In fact, they were both very arrogant and pushy. Several people told me they are very strange and they do not trust them. Still, I am apparently the only one to call Mr. Pervo on his behavior. My instinct that what he was doing was so strong I was ready to be as fierce as I needed to be to get the point across to him that I wasn't about to tolerate him fondling a 97-year-old woman suffering from dementia.
What should I do about this next time? It looked like an act of sexual assault to me (at the very best it was terribly disrespectful to the patient) and I felt like I should intervene THEN, not stand out in the hall and whisper about it to someone else. I believe if he cared anything about Mrs. J he would have understood her caregiver stepping in to ensure her safety, but he wasn't concerned about that at all. Then again, if he really cared about Mrs. J I can't believe he would have been touching her in such a demeaning way. It was really gross.
When a doctor yells at me I generally cower appropriately and go about my way.
These really aren't the same kinds of situations and shouldn't be compared.
Again, you can't tell me you've never lost your cool. Right or wrong.
Sure, I've lost my cool several times. :) Each time afterward though I give it some thought and what I should have done differently. And then usually, in the future, I'm able to avoid yelling or losing my cool.
I must admit I fall in with the group who feels there was most likely a better way to handle this. There is no way touching an arm comes anywhere close to sexual assault or molestation regardless of how creepy you might find it. I'm not saying he was appropriate (I wasn't there) but if you had the presence of mind to walk out and talk to the CNA about him then I find it odd that you would be so quick to anger when the patient was not in distress and not in immediate danger.
No doubt you feel strongly you did the right thing, but I think you could have handled it better. What if he is a family friend and the family is perfectly comfortable with his behavior? Perhaps they will be angry with you for the way you treated him?
I can honestly say that if it were my mother, I'd be pretty upset with you for treating her visitor that way for what you considered inappropriate touching of her arm. Particularly if you didn't find it inappropriate enough to document it or notify me and clarify his statements regarding their relationship.
FOR THE THOUSANDTH TIME THIS WAS NOT A TOUCH ON THE ARM! This man who is NOT HER FAMILY and just SOME GUY from church was touching her on the LEG! Since when is this a normal greeting?
I agree that losing cool wasn't the best,but things are done and can't be changed. Not only was the OP creeped out by the behavior so were other staff. I certainly would have made him get off the bed and asked him to leave. Not everyone has the gift to be stoic and hide their emotions. I do believe the OP did the right thing by standing up for a patient who couldn't stand up for herself.
FOR THE THOUSANDTH TIME THIS WAS NOT A TOUCH ON THE ARM! This man who is NOT HER FAMILY and just SOME GUY from church was touching her on the LEG! Since when is this a normal greeting?
I'm sorry, I went by what the original post said and she specifically stated she saw him touching the patients arm--not the leg.
She was laying supine and he was sitting next to her with his body over hers and intimately rubbing her arm. It didn't look right to me. At one point he leaned over and looked like he was going to kiss her.
The only mention of the leg was a second hand comment from a CNA but even that could be harmless. I've seen countless people touch someone on the leg as they are talking to them while the person was laying in bed.
I realize the man wasn't family, but I'm not sure that would alter my perception of the situation anyway. If the touch was inappopriate along the lines of sexual assault (which is what the original post stated) then how would that be any more acceptable coming from a family member? If I thought a touch was inappropriate to the point of sexual assault it's not going to be ok just because the person is her son, uncle, brother or in-law!
Could his behavior have been inappropriate? Sure. I don't think it comes close to sexual assault but that doesn't mean it couldn't be inappropriate. But based on her comments regarding what she witnessed and her reaction, I think her behavior was inappropriate and that is what she's asking for feedback on. His behavior wasn't serious enough for her to document it, contact the family or contact a supervisor immediately so either she overreacted to the situation and lost her cool (which happens but that doesn't mean it's acceptable) or she neglected to do anything that would support her behavior as being appropriate to the situation. Based on what she has said, I tend to believe it's the former and not the latter. I've got no doubt that in the moment she felt she was doing the right thing and her intentions were the very best, but I can believe that and still think she could have taken a moment to think things out and handled the situation in a more appropriate manner. She had a moment to go out in the hall and chat with the CNA so she obviously realized the patient wasn't in "act now ask later" danger.
Imagine the exact same situation that Jo has described, but everyone replying to these posts, please visualize that frail, senile woman as your own 97 yr. old mother.
(Really, please take at least 5 seconds or longer and truly visualize your own mother...exact same situation, in that bed).
Now, let's see a show of hands for how many of us have any church friends or family members (other than a spouse) that would lay across us, touch and rub us or try to kiss us in the ways described by Jo?
Sadly, many pervs know the way to finding easy victims is the same as this guy's modus operandi.
Having a wife along (but not in the room at the same time) adds to the illusion of normalcy he wants to project.
Jo, you're the kind of nurse I'd want if I'm ever like that 97 yr. old defenseless, confused woman in the future.
Of course you can't go back and change it, and clearly you were very upset when it happened. But it's good to talk it out. You can really have a candid exchange with someone without being on the offense. One way would be to smile, introduce yourself and ask him who he is. You can even say "I'm a little uncomfortable with visitors sitting on the beds; could I ask you to sit in this chair by the bed?" Then if he became defensive and didn't comply, I'd call the house supervisor or equivalent and ask them to come asap to take over, and then document. Then if you're unhappy with the way your supervisor handles it, you can deal with that separately. It's easy to say from the armchair, but those are my thoughts.
Specializes in Community Health, Med-Surg, Home Health.
None of us were there to witness this interaction, so we can't say for sure exactly what happened. What I do hope for, is that at some point, someone can explain to this visitor how or why this appeared to be inappropriate and that the nurse was trying to be an advocate. And, if this person meant no harm, then, maybe he would understand that the OP was acting as a protector for the patient.
If it were my husband touching me while I was in bed, even demented, I think if I were in my right mind, I would be happy that he still loved me even though I was no longer in my right mind. If it were a close friend that was close to me, maybe I would have felt comforted, I don't know. What should come out of this is clarity of the relationship between this patient and visitor and rules that everyone can feel comfortable with.
nurseby07
338 Posts
Hey Jo-
I would be honored if you were ever my nurse.
Job well done.