It was a quiet Sunday afternoon and I walked into a 97 year old woman's room and saw a strange man sitting on her bed. She was laying supine and he was sitting next to her with his body over hers and intimately rubbing her arm. It didn't look right to me. At one point he leaned over and looked like he was going to kiss her.
I went to the nurse's station and asked the CNA if he was a relative. She said he wasn't, he was from "a church."
I said, he's in there getting too touchy-feely with Mrs. J and she said he had his hand on her leg when she saw him and agreed, he gave her the creeps.
I went into her room and asked if he was a relative and he said no, he was a friend. I said this whole scene is totally inappropriate, totally inappropriate, you need to get off that bed and get your hands off this patient!!! He was pushy an unapologetic and said everyone knows who he is and his wife is visiting down the hall, everyone knows him, the family knows he comes to see her and wants him to touch her and kiss her and let her know she is loved.
It made me sick.
He left and came back with his wife who wanted to know what my problem was and I told her. So, she went and sat on the bed and held this woman's hand (nothing like how her husband was touching the patient). Then the husband said I made him really upset and I shot back that I was pretty upset myself. I said you can't tell me you wouldn't want me to do the same thing if it was your mother and I thought she was being touched inappropriately! He just gave me this defiant look as if he didn't have a clue what I meant.
Him and his wife left and didn't say another word to me.
I wrote a long letter to the DON and plan to call tomorrow. This has me really upset. Just because these people go to church does not make them virtuous. In fact, they were both very arrogant and pushy. Several people told me they are very strange and they do not trust them. Still, I am apparently the only one to call Mr. Pervo on his behavior. My instinct that what he was doing was so strong I was ready to be as fierce as I needed to be to get the point across to him that I wasn't about to tolerate him fondling a 97-year-old woman suffering from dementia.
What should I do about this next time? It looked like an act of sexual assault to me (at the very best it was terribly disrespectful to the patient) and I felt like I should intervene THEN, not stand out in the hall and whisper about it to someone else. I believe if he cared anything about Mrs. J he would have understood her caregiver stepping in to ensure her safety, but he wasn't concerned about that at all. Then again, if he really cared about Mrs. J I can't believe he would have been touching her in such a demeaning way. It was really gross.
I think considering the needs and comfort of the other patients, families visiting, other staff etc can be a good motivator to handle a situation as calmly and quickly as possible.
Don't forget that many nurses despise when doctors yell at them. I recall reading the thread here a few days ago where tiredmd made a million excuses for why yelling at nurses was appropriate in some situations. He had a ton of people telling him it was never appropriate to yell at nurses. Well, all i'm suggesting is that it's never appropriate to yell or use certain kinds of language with patients/visitors either. You lose effectiveness and people respect you a lot less because of it.
If losing that respect and control over a situation doesn't bother you, then hey...you're a different person than I am.
edit: it isn't like I am only this way with the nurses I work with at clinical. I am notorious on my clinical floor for handling doctors who get whiny and yelling (ok so it only happened twice but it was out in the open and people STILL talk about it) And now those same two doctors respect me and will even stop to chat sometimes if i have a patient of theirs.
Just saying. :)
We don't know that she yelled at the visitor. She could have calmly said that it was inappropriate and maybe even raised her voice a little since she was upset that the visitor was doing what he was doing.
Yelling and speaking up are different. Alot of times when a nurse says that the doc "yelled" at her there was not any yelling involved. Maybe some attitude, but not yelling like I am thinking of. I have seen few docs actually yell at someone.
My mom is always told that she is yelling and she isn't. She has a very loud voice naturally and that can be mistaken. We had a nurse like that on our floor. She would talk and people would say she is yelling and it was her normal voice. That needs to be considered too.
And we have to remember that some people are more reactionary than others. Not everyone can always remain calm,cool,and collected in a stressful situation.
Since when is touching a woman on the leg a normal greeting? I can see if the touching was her hand, arm, shoulder, but not her leg. Seriously come on, that isn't normal especially if this wasn't her family. This was some guy from "church".
This is how I tend to think, too, but like many who have been through a traumatic experience, there is often confusion about what "really" happened and a lot of self-doubt.
I'm thinking the administrator and DON do not want to get involved in a big issue that might draw attention to the facility in an unflattering light, and they would rather just sweep it under the rug. Especially considering this creepo has been a visitor in the facility for years and has a cousin there as well. I did tell them I didn't see what that had to do with him being on another hall in a female patient's room...
I actually agree with Caliotter. I don't share much on a personal level at my job. I'm lucky in that I work on a great unit with people I really like but I still keep my private life very private. That's just what makes me most comfortable. Things shared even in complete innocence can be used against you. We've seen it happen here time and again. Sad but true. If someone else wants to share all parts of their life I don't judge them at all. If Jo wants to share that she might have overreacted here due to her life experience that's totally her call and I respect that even if I wouldn't have done it. Neither side is right and neither is wrong.
This is how I tend to think, too, but like many who have been through a traumatic experience, there is often confusion about what "really" happened and a lot of self-doubt.
I'm thinking the administrator and DON do not want to get involved in a big issue that might draw attention to the facility in an unflattering light, and they would rather just sweep it under the rug. Especially considering this creepo has been a visitor in the facility for years and has a cousin there as well. I did tell them I didn't see what that had to do with him being on another hall in a female patient's room...
I really don't think your personal experience clouded that judgement at all. That is not normal for a causal freind from church to do.
He needs to stick to visiting his family only. He dosen't need to be in another pt room in a completely different area of the LTC facility.
And you are right about administration keeping this quiet.
You really should consider keeping your childhood experiences to yourself. I can think of no reason why two male supervisors needed to have been told about your past. Telling personal info like this only puts you in a "different" light with them and surely could have served no useful purpose as far as a LTC job is concerned. Discretion keeps one from derogatory pidgeonholing. The less supervisors know about your personal life and your past, the better.
Well, you know, it fit into the situation we were talking about (mentioned in an above post.) I didn't go into details, I just mentioned how a personal experience may have fueled the anger and violent repulsion I felt toward this man. I am normally a very quiet and low-key person who does not advertise my personal business to anyone, male OR female. It wasn't a Jerry Springer moment, it was relevant to the conversation. One of the supervisors was a nurse, who surely understood (at least to an extent) how children can be permanently affected by such events and it may have served as an "aha" moment when they were trying to figure out why this normally meek, good-natured, very quiet woman suddenly turned into a raging gorilla.
If that's still not a good enough explanation for you, well, that's too bad. I didn't do anything wrong ( as far as that's concerned.)
I feel bad enough about this whole situation without having more guilt hammered on to add insult to injury.
And you are either completely missing the point (or perhaps deliberately missing the point) of how some things in life illicit such strong emotions "diplomacy" is the last thing on that person's mind. If you have the paranormal gift of always holding yourself together and exemplifying the voice of reason regardless of the situation, good for you.
Now, in the event you are not being totally unreasonable and can understand how there are times when emotions take over even the most professional of people and they may react in a way not considered refined and professional, then, yes, I know what you mean about catching more flies with honey.
This is how I tend to think, too, but like many who have been through a traumatic experience, there is often confusion about what "really" happened and a lot of self-doubt.
I'm thinking the administrator and DON do not want to get involved in a big issue that might draw attention to the facility in an unflattering light, and they would rather just sweep it under the rug. Especially considering this creepo has been a visitor in the facility for years and has a cousin there as well. I did tell them I didn't see what that had to do with him being on another hall in a female patient's room...
Jo Dirt
I find your above two statements distressing ....
You protected a vulnerable person who could not speak for herself... THANK YOU.
The patient's family members need to be informed that the visitor was touching their mother. The administrator and/or DON need to speak to the family about this in order to clarify if the family understand that this visitor touches their mother's leg, sits on the bed and touches her arm. They need to ask if the family, as substitute decision makers for their mother, think she would want the visitor to do this? If so, then it needs to be documented, if not it needs to be documented and the visitor and wife need to be informed that unwanted, unconsented touching is by law, considered assault and they must not do it in the future.
If the adminstrator/DON do not discuss this with the family and the family finds out from members of the church, it will seriously compromise the families trust in all of the staff at the facility and could lead to an investigation, litigation etc.
You may want to point out to the administrator/ DON that there is an ethical and legal need for transparency in this matter.
I agree 100% with Dishes. I would like to add - while sometimes we think how we could have done something better - it is better than to have done nothing at all. You have nothing to feel bad about Joe Dirt. Hold your head high - you are a decent person and the world needs people like you.
Jo Dirt-I really do think you should have filed an incident report. The touching is completely inappropriate and someone other than management (who will probably just want to keep things quiet) needs to be aware of the situation. As nurses we are ethically bound to act on anything that warrants our concern and to report it to the appropriate authorities.
And I would not have told management anything about my past either. It will make your side of the story less credible, they may think your overreacting and not being reasonable.
nrsang97, BSN, RN
2,602 Posts
We don't know that she yelled at the visitor. She could have calmly said that it was inappropriate and maybe even raised her voice a little since she was upset that the visitor was doing what he was doing.
Yelling and speaking up are different. Alot of times when a nurse says that the doc "yelled" at her there was not any yelling involved. Maybe some attitude, but not yelling like I am thinking of. I have seen few docs actually yell at someone.
My mom is always told that she is yelling and she isn't. She has a very loud voice naturally and that can be mistaken. We had a nurse like that on our floor. She would talk and people would say she is yelling and it was her normal voice. That needs to be considered too.
And we have to remember that some people are more reactionary than others. Not everyone can always remain calm,cool,and collected in a stressful situation.