Can refusing mandation during state of emergency get you fired?

misswhitney · Sep 1, 2011

I'm not sure about being fired, which does seem likely, you could be accused of abandonment. My problem with this is the hire ups get to stay home and be with their families, along with those not in direct patient care, and the people who call in bc they don't want to leave their families. On the flipside, at least in florida, you are suppose to have a safety plan for your family. So in case of an emergency where you can't leave, your family is taken care of.

Altra, BSN, RN · Sep 1, 2011

Yes, it is possible.

You have to know your employer's policies. Many specifically spell out the circumstances under which employees can be mandated to remain at work past their scheduled shifts - including when the facility's disaster plan is activated.

Esme12, ASN, BSN, RN · Sep 1, 2011

abouttofly said:
I live in New York and we were recently hit by a hurricane, which declared NY in a state of emergency. I work overnights as a CNA at a rehab and nursing home and was working the night of the hurricane. Of course, the morning shift was short and I was mandated and told if I didn't stay, I'd get fired. Being a single mom, there was no way I could stay. Considering that my relief did come and it was a different half of the unit they were trying to mandate me for, is it legal for them to fire me?

Yes...

At-will employment is a doctrine of american law that defines an employment relationship in which either party can break the relationship with no liability, provided there was no express contract for a definite term governing the employment relationship and that the employer does not belong to a collective bargaining group (I.E., has not recognized a union). Under this legal doctrine:

"Any hiring is presumed to be "At will"; that is, the employer is free to discharge individuals "For good cause, or bad cause, or no cause at all," and the employee is equally free to quit, strike, or otherwise cease work."

The doctrine of at-will employment has been criticized as predicated upon flawed assumptions about the inherent distribution of power and information in the employee-employer relationship and for its brutal harshness upon employees. Regardless, the doctrine is widely credited as one of the major factors behind the strength of the U.S. Economy. In particular, at-will employment has been credited with making possible the success of silicon valley as an entrepreneur-friendly environment. The doctrine enables american entrepreneurs to rapidly staff new startups, secure in the knowledge that they can also promptly terminate employees who turn out to be incompetent or lazy (which is not the case in many other countries).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/At-will_employment

systoly · Sep 1, 2011

Legally, in my state, if you completed your scheduled shift, you are NOT guilty of abandonment. It is an employment issue and your employer is responsible for providing adequate staff. Many managers do not understand this, or they do and just believe in threatening their staff. Now, you can always get fired, but if the facility was ignorant enough to cite abandonment as cause for the termination, you'd have a strong case if you so desired.

Now the would have, could have, should haves:

There was plenty of warning and both, the facility as well as you had time to

arrange for such circumstances. What if you couldn't make it home because of

hurricane damage or flooding? I'm sorry, but expecting to get off on time during a disaster is just not realistic.

imintrouble, BSN, RN · Sep 1, 2011

Sometimes we're faced with impossible choices. Not just in nursing, but in any job that pits family against employoment.

I wonder how many staff called in for precisely the reason you needed to go home.

Kudos to you for showing up for your scheduled shift.

llg, PhD, RN · Sep 1, 2011

I can't speak to the law -- because I am a nurse, not an attorney.

But ... I live on the East Coast ... and we tell all of our employees that we expect them to have plans for events such as hurricanes. They may get "stuck" at the hospital and not be able to leave -- and we wouldn't want their families to suffer because they failed to plan any more than they do. The expectations are clear. It is their job to plan ahead to be able to meet them.

Policemen, firemen, journalists, meteorologists ... and healthcare workers, etc. need to understand that their job is to take care of others. And in major community emergencies, they will be expected to do their jobs -- and they need make plans ahead of time to deal with those major (but fortunately, uncommon) events.

SuesquatchRN, BSN, RN · Sep 1, 2011

CNAs in NYS cannot be charged with abandonment. But yes, you can be fired for any reason they like. NY is an at-will state.

merlee · Sep 1, 2011

Where was your child while you were at work? If the roads were already flooded, what were you going to do?

We all need contingency plans.

I don't know the laws in your state, but you need to know the policies of your facility.

I have been through blizzards and hurricanes, and know that many people had to make plans for their families.

applewhitern, BSN, RN · Sep 1, 2011

Living in Florida and the gulf coast of Alabama, I have been thru many hurricanes. We were always required to stay at the hospital; once I had to stay for 5 days straight. We had to pack clothes, food, and water for ourselves as the kitchen would not be open to staff. We weren't allowed to bring our children to the hospital, so that was indeed an issue for me. We weren't allowed to sleep in the extra rooms, even tho we had discharged every patient we could. But what bothered us, was that the doctors were allowed to bring their spouses and their children, and they got to sleep in the patient rooms while the rest of us had to sleep on army cots in the hallway. As for abandonment, I was told that only a patient could "sue" you for this; not the hospital. Don't know if that is true or not.

RunnerRN2015, ASN, RN · Sep 1, 2011

I'm a teacher and we're required to stay at school with our students until the parents are able to come pick up their child(ren). Each child has an emergency kit in the classroom that includes a change of clothing and enough food for 24 hours (water bottle, canned tuna, canned fruit, crackers, etc). Knock on wood, we've never had to unzip those bags! :up:

DizzyLizzyNurse · Sep 1, 2011

applewhitern said:
Living in Florida and the gulf coast of Alabama, I have been thru many hurricanes. We were always required to stay at the hospital; once I had to stay for 5 days straight. We had to pack clothes, food, and water for ourselves as the kitchen would not be open to staff. We weren't allowed to bring our children to the hospital, so that was indeed an issue for me. We weren't allowed to sleep in the extra rooms, even tho we had discharged every patient we could. But what bothered us, was that the doctors were allowed to bring their spouses and their children, and they got to sleep in the patient rooms while the rest of us had to sleep on army cots in the hallway. As for abandonment, I was told that only a patient could "sue" you for this; not the hospital. Don't know if that is true or not.

WOW! when we got hit with a blizzard (6 feet of snow - and an ice storm that was totally unexpected, seriously they make "I survived this storm" t shirts our administrator got into his 4WD and picked up everyone who couldn't make it in and then went and got us food for coming to work LOL. That was back when I LOVED my job and the people I worked for. Granted I worked in a smaller LTC and most people lived pretty close by.

I can't believe they treated the doc's so much better than the nurses. At least treat everyone equally bad.

Can refusing mandation during state of emergency get you fired?

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