BSN vs ADN Education?????

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I am preparing a debate in a BSN program. I have to argue BSN should not be required for entry into pratice as a professional RN. What do you think either way?????? :rolleyes:

Specializes in Med-Surg.
Well that's what i'm saying. I've seen some argue pro-BSN that throw in a remark liks ADNs not having critical thinking skills, and i'm thinking "this education is the best in your opinion yet you had to throw in that ADN remark to prove this??"

I hear ya. Cutting down the ADN education to promote your own is wrong.

Perhaps that's why their cause is getting no where, because their generalizations ring so untrue.

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The Aiken article has been thoroughly vetted... it is a watershed. I think the bottom line is................. that BSN nurses are better prepared to think critically, a process which improves patient outcome. The writing is on the wall... and sooner or later states will begin requiring that new grads have a BSN. Some teaching hospitals are trying to achieve an all-BSN workforce. While some might say that that goal is unrealistic, I don't think it's a stretch to say that, all things being equal, a unit manager will hire a BSN over an ADN any day.

I personally know a lot of nurse managers, and I know what they're looking for. There might come a time, sooner than we think, when ADN nurses will be considered nothing more than "technicians", and BSN nurses will be making all the important patient-care decisions (as well as managing). This is not a fantasy; this debate is going on right now at my nursing school. The nurses who control the state boards and professional associations are, for the most part, BSN-educated and higher. The line is already in the sand.....................

That debate goes on at every nursing school, yours is hardly unique.

One of my instructors in my LPN program graduated from the very first ADN program in the state in 1971. Her whole class was told that they were going to eventually become "technicians" if they didn't go on for their BSN.

I guess by the word "eventually" they meant more than 30 some years later because it still hasn't happened.

BTW, North Dakota tried the mandatory BSN thing and it failed.

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the pro bsn people are DYING to have their education recognized. it flat out bugs them that they have the same license as an adn. they want RESPECT, and want to be recognized as PROFESSIONALS.

one group of folks you can't fool are people in charge of staffing hospitals who need workers that work in the real world. and i have yet to see hospital administrators pushing for the bsn requirement. the ones pushing are people who are bsn's, msn's, and phd's associated with bsn programs. that's it. now why is that?

as far as critical thinking skills and education ... heck, i've seen lpn's that i'd trust my life to in a heartbeat, and i've seen bsn's who are flipping idiots, that i wouldn't trust a goldfish's life to. it's about the nurse, not the program. in the real world, you learn very quickly where someone stands.

certifications are a better way to tell who is trained for what. i'm for expanding this practical approach with very tough exams based on real world skills and knowledge.

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i can just see it now... adn's with 10 years experience unable to make "important decisions" without the wisdom of someone who has just graduated a bsn program. yes, they are just lowly technicians awaiting a master pontificator who really knows "what nursing is all about".

reality or fantasy? i'd have to go with the second option!

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Specializes in critical care.
I am preparing a debate in a BSN program. I have to argue BSN should not be required for entry into pratice as a professional RN. What do you think either way?????? :rolleyes:

:deadhorse

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Specializes in Neuro, Critical Care.
I am preparing a debate in a BSN program. I have to argue BSN should not be required for entry into pratice as a professional RN. What do you think either way?????? :rolleyes:

I did a debate on this same subject and I started a thread about it:) I cant remember what i called it but I got some good answers..:)good luck!

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I did a debate on this same subject and I started a thread about it:) I cant remember what i called it but I got some good answers..:)good luck!

Please don't attack me, this is my first post, I usually just lurk because I'm not a nurse, just a pre-nursing student. But, this is a very important debate, I think and it bothers me that so many don't feel that way. The largest problem with nursing is that it is not seen as a profession, more as a technical side of medicine. Most ADN programs require at least 3 years due to the prereq's, and a BSN only takes an additional year beyond that. Nursing does need to be seen as a profession to obtain better pay and better working conditions for those involved in it. A Bachelor degree is seen by many, and I'm not saying it SHOULD be this way, as better than an Associate degree. In addition many BSN programs require courses in Health Care Administration and management courses. If more nurses had taken these courses, they would have the potential to have a greater understanding of how the system works, and therefore how to fix it. And those who feel that a Bachelor degree is superior to an Associate degree would feel that nurses were better qualified, therefore more deserving of better pay, respect, and better conditions. To be treated as professionals, nurses have to be SEEN as professionals. I'm not saying that I think those with ADN degrees are stupid or less competent, but the reality is that many do, and this is a problem with only one solution. As far as the expense factor, there is such a shortage that financial aid is fairly easy to come by for nursing degrees, and if it is possible to make nursing into more of a profession with higher pay, then the higher tuition is worth it in the long run. One could still take pre-req's at a community college to save money, take loans which would become mangeable with a higher rate of pay, and be seen with more respect by the majority of the population. And again, it is generally just one additional year. Worth it for the benefits that I feel would come with it. Granted it may not happen overnight, most change doesn't. But I for one believe that it would be a start. And please don't think that I feel that those with Associate are stupid, because I know they are not. A&P, Chemistry, Algebra, and all the other required science courses are not able to be completed by anyone who is less than intelligent. To me, the issue is all about respect by others, and in turn, better working conditions and pay.

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To me, the issue is all about respect by others, and in turn, better working conditions and pay.

an adn with a few certs can make $33-50 per hour per diem. what exactly do you expect? is a much more severe shortage of nurses going to make working conditions better? it's like the profession shooting itself in the foot by discouraging many from entering. talk about misery from patient overload. and for what?

having a bsn doesn't make the profession more respected. that's a terrible misconception. people are going to view nurses as they do now, based on the reality of the job they perform. and that won't change., because the job won't change. it's not about playing "we must be respected" games... it's about taking care of patients and having an entry level that sufficiently approximates the reality of taking care of patients where it's needed.... AT THE BEDSIDE.

let's face it.. society isn't going to pay 100 an hour for a nurse to take care of one patient. there's got to be a limit somewhere. nurses are comparitively well paid and there are plenty of opportunities to earn money for those willing to work.

since we're already short of nurses, especially considering the waves of people soon to be hitting the retirement system.... what would it accomplish to require bedside nurses to take courses that don't apply to the reality of patient care?

at any rate, this discussion is moot. the bsn requirement won't fly, since it's a pig, and putting wings on it won't make it fly :).

and please don't consider this an attack. it's only a discussion!

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Specializes in 5 yrs OR, ASU Pre-Op 2 yr. ER.
Perhaps that's why their cause is getting no where, because their generalizations ring so untrue.

i think that's why either part of the cause gets no where.

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Please don't attack me, this is my first post, I usually just lurk because I'm not a nurse, just a pre-nursing student. But, this is a very important debate, I think and it bothers me that so many don't feel that way. The largest problem with nursing is that it is not seen as a profession, more as a technical side of medicine. Most ADN programs require at least 3 years due to the prereq's, and a BSN only takes an additional year beyond that. Nursing does need to be seen as a profession to obtain better pay and better working conditions for those involved in it. A Bachelor degree is seen by many, and I'm not saying it SHOULD be this way, as better than an Associate degree. In addition many BSN programs require courses in Health Care Administration and management courses. If more nurses had taken these courses, they would have the potential to have a greater understanding of how the system works, and therefore how to fix it. And those who feel that a Bachelor degree is superior to an Associate degree would feel that nurses were better qualified, therefore more deserving of better pay, respect, and better conditions. To be treated as professionals, nurses have to be SEEN as professionals. I'm not saying that I think those with ADN degrees are stupid or less competent, but the reality is that many do, and this is a problem with only one solution. As far as the expense factor, there is such a shortage that financial aid is fairly easy to come by for nursing degrees, and if it is possible to make nursing into more of a profession with higher pay, then the higher tuition is worth it in the long run. One could still take pre-req's at a community college to save money, take loans which would become mangeable with a higher rate of pay, and be seen with more respect by the majority of the population. And again, it is generally just one additional year. Worth it for the benefits that I feel would come with it. Granted it may not happen overnight, most change doesn't. But I for one believe that it would be a start. And please don't think that I feel that those with Associate are stupid, because I know they are not. A&P, Chemistry, Algebra, and all the other required science courses are not able to be completed by anyone who is less than intelligent. To me, the issue is all about respect by others, and in turn, better working conditions and pay.

I coudn't agree more. I have said this same thing many times. As long as nursing has only a "technical", two- year degree as entry into practice, we will ALWAYS be seen as less than professional. ALL OTHER HEALTH CARE PROFESSIONALS HAVE AT LEAST A BACHELORS'S DEGREE AS ENTRY INTO PRACTICE, AND MOST HAVE ADVANCED TO A MASTERS AND NOW A DOCTORATE AS ENTRY INTO PRACTICE. EVEN DENTAL HYGEINISTS HAVE A BACHELORS DEGREE AS ENTRY INTO PRACTICE. PHYSICAL THERAPY ASSISTANTS HAVE AN ASSOCIATES DEGREE AS ENTRY INTO PRACTICE.

There is no good reason to continue with entry into practice that is less than a Bachelors Degree. It will unite us and prevent our profession from continualy being marginalized by hospitals. A Bachelors Degree professional is harder to replace and justify with a HS drop out. Nurses are a dime a dozen and hospitals just wait for the next class of suckers to graduate from "ABC Community College" to replace last years graduating class that have all quit. Victims of understaffing, overwork, treated like crap, and have gone on to greener pastures. There is no reason to make nurses happy, as we have seen with our shrinking paychecks. If there was really a shortage, our paychecks and benefits would have been increased significantly. As it is, they have not. Because there is no reason to.

I am of the opinion that the ultimate goals of hospitals and insurance companies is to completely change the profession. Make the professional practice that we now perform, into a non professional career, more in line with a "health care/ patient care technician", and shift the peofessional care that we now perform, to them. They will continue to pressure Congress to loosen the Visa requirements, and allow more foreign nurses in, who will not complain. One RN will supervise an entire floor/unit of non- professionals performing ALL OF THE PROFESSIONAL PRACTICES THAT ARE NOW RESERVED FOR RNS. I never thought that I would see the day where "medication aides" would take over the practice of medication administration. I had always though that was the last bastion that was untouchable. Silly me. What will be next?

This assault on our profession will continue un- abated, for the simple reason that nursing does not have the political clout to impact, shape, and control, our profession. Nurses with Associates Degrees and Diplomas are not invited to the corporate table where Public Policy is decided and shaped. And the sad fact is that too many of us are not motivated enough to take the hard step to make the necessary changes. There are too many nurses, and individuals who are more concerned with how to get in and out of school as fast as possible, and are not concerned with the long-term ramifications of that decision. While I realize that there are financial concerns for many of first time students, and for the many individuals who are coming into nursing as a second career, there is no good reason to continue to make nursing the welfare of the health care professions. The fact is that individuals who desire to be Physical Therapist, Occupational Therapists, Pharmacists, Social Workers, Dieticains, etc, are not fazed by the length of the educational programs, and entry into practice. I have spoken to many of them concerning this. As far as they are concerned the increased length of time it takes to enter into practice, keeps the "rif raf" out of the profession. In the same way, high housing prices keep the rif- raf out of the neighborhood. The fewer PTs and OTs. etc, the more in demand they are. Again, nurses are a dime a dozen.

I am in no way saying that ADN's and Diplomas Grads are not good nurses. All I am saying is that the time has more that come for a change. ADN's and Diplomas nurses will be grandfathered in and not lose their licensure. I was originally a Diploma grad in 1975, and figured out real quick that nurses were at the bottom of the food chain, behind others who had more ecucation that we did. I went back ot school and earned my BSN. I would never regret it.

Just look at who is fighting the most to keep us from increasing our educational requirements. Hospitals, the Hospital Associations, the American Medical Association, Insurance Companies, and not surprising, the ANA. The ANA is more more in line with the philosophies of the above companies, and associations, than the long term needs of the nurses who they are sworned to serve and represent. That alone should make every nurse quesion their motives, and fight for a change in the educational requirments of the profession, and question the allegiance of the ones who don't. Why should hospitals want nurses to have higher education requirements as entry into practice? Then we would want more money, just like the PTs and OT, etc.

Colleges would have to make classes more accessible and affordable so nurses could go back to school. Hospitals would have to offer on site BSN classes for the nurses, (and they have), like they have done for Pharmacists, when they went to a Doctorate as entry into practice. We would start to DEMAND THESE ACCOMMADATIONS. We need to get rid of worthless state nursing associations who send our dues money to the ANA. We have to align with organizations like the CNA, and the NNOC, and encourage a national organization that represents ALL NURSES. A unified nursing workforce would be awesome, and powerful enought to fend off attacks form other groups like the AMA, Insurance industry, etc. MD's by the way, are turning to unionizing to gain more political clout as they become employees of HMOs. Nurse Attorneys would respresent nurses in employment issues against abusive employers and physicians. THIS SHOULD BE THE WAVE OF THE FUTURE! This could be OUR nursing profession if we work as a group, and start to work towards a unifying goal that is best for the entire profession not just our own selfish needs. Everyone needs to support these organizations who have our best interest at heart, not the insurance comapnies and the hospital associations. LOOK AT THE BIG PICTURE! LOOK AT WHAT HAS GONE ON THE PAST DECADE, AND YOU TOO WILL SEE THAT THESE ARE THE ULTIMATE GOALS OF THE INSURANCE COMPANIES AND HOSPITALS. We need, more than ever, to align with organizations who are fighting for us.

Lindarn, RN, BSN, CCRN

Spokane, Washington

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Specializes in Oncology/Haemetology/HIV.

And speaking of generalizations!!!!!!!!!!

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an adn with a few certs can make $33-50 per hour per diem. what exactly do you expect? is a much more severe shortage of nurses going to make working conditions better? it's like the profession shooting itself in the foot by discouraging many from entering. talk about misery from patient overload. and for what?

having a bsn doesn't make the profession more respected. that's a terrible misconception. people are going to view nurses as they do now, based on the reality of the job they perform. and that won't change., because the job won't change. it's not about playing "we must be respected" games... it's about taking care of patients and having an entry level that sufficiently approximates the reality of taking care of patients where it's needed.... AT THE BEDSIDE.

let's face it.. society isn't going to pay 100 an hour for a nurse to take care of one patient. there's got to be a limit somewhere. nurses are comparitively well paid and there are plenty of opportunities to earn money for those willing to work.

since we're already short of nurses, especially considering the waves of people soon to be hitting the retirement system.... what would it accomplish to require bedside nurses to take courses that don't apply to the reality of patient care?

at any rate, this discussion is moot. the bsn requirement won't fly, since it's a pig, and putting wings on it won't make it fly :).

and please don't consider this an attack. it's only a discussion!

Let me just say that it's great that in your area nurses can receive those wages, but in my area, it's not the case. I actually think that those are acceptable wages for nursing, I don't believe that nurses should receive one hundred dollars an hour. Around here starting wage is around $17-20 an hour, and I don't feel that that is acceptable given the work load nurses receive. And no, experience does not lead to increases much higher than that, unless you are willing to work with no benefits, something which I also feel is not a very fair position to put the nurse in: Choose between a liveable wage or receiving much needed benefits. And I still believe that people view a Bachelor degree as more important and respectable than an Associate degree. I did not say that I believe that, but it is a common belief, especially among the upper class. I have had more than one professor proclaim that education at community colleges is below average. I disagree with that, as I have attended a few classes at a community college, and the work load was comparable to other courses of the same level that I have taken at a four year university. To many people, education is worthy of respect, and the higher your education level, the higher some people view you. Just a sad fact of life. I've seen some brilliant people who never attended a day of college in their life, and I've seen some complete idiots with advanced degrees. It's all about perception, and America is a land which places a high value on education.

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