BSN vs ADN Education?????

Nurses General Nursing

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I am preparing a debate in a BSN program. I have to argue BSN should not be required for entry into pratice as a professional RN. What do you think either way?????? :rolleyes:

Specializes in Gerontological Nursing, Acute Rehab.

please, please lock it.....PLEASE!! :banghead: :selfbonk:

As others have said....do a search....or better yet, ask lindarn for her opinion in a PM.....I soooo don't want to read this again!

Edited to add: I am a ADN, have no desire to go for a BSN at this point, and am quite happy where I am......work 6 days a month and make A LOT more than some "professionals" who have a bachelor's or higher degree. And I have never felt belittled by anyone with a higher degree, because I'm a good nurse with a good work ethic. My patients and their families appreciate me, and that my dears, is ALL that matters to me.

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having a bsn doesn't make the profession more respected. that's a terrible misconception. people are going to view nurses as they do now, based on the reality of the job they perform. and that won't change., because the job won't change. it's not about playing "we must be respected" games... it's about taking care of patients and having an entry level that sufficiently approximates the reality of taking care of patients where it's needed.... AT THE BEDSIDE.

let's face it.. society isn't going to pay 100 an hour for a nurse to take care of one patient. there's got to be a limit somewhere. nurses are comparitively well paid and there are plenty of opportunities to earn money for those willing to work.

since we're already short of nurses, especially considering the waves of people soon to be hitting the retirement system.... what would it accomplish to require bedside nurses to take courses that don't apply to the reality of patient care?

at any rate, this discussion is moot. the bsn requirement won't fly, since it's a pig, and putting wings on it won't make it fly :).

and please don't consider this an attack. it's only a discussion!

Gonna have to take issue with you here. The idea that additional education has no intrinsic value to the profession is just absurd. People who claim that there's no difference seem to think that the extra time in school is spent on advanced finger painting or basket weaving. There's a reason other professions put a premium on higher levels of education - it makes a difference in the range of choices, options and flexibility for the individual and that translates to an advantage to the overall operation of an organization.

Can you get that experience on the job? Sure. In some professions, there is even a years-of-experience-equals-a-degree trade off. Does that mean that the ONLY way to get that knowledge is through OJT? Absolutely not.

In other professions, its a "given" that if you take the shorter route to getting into the field (e.g., tech school or Assoc. degree), then the growth once in the field is slower - because you've got to learn new skills at the same time as performing learned ones. People who have the option of attending a Bachelor's level program usually understand that the delay in entering the workforce is compensated down the line by a quicker rate of growth and higher rate of starting pay (The pay is recognition of the faster progression rate - not their initial skill. Business actually spends less money in paying higher salaries for degreed individuals than paying longer term salaries for non-degreed people to spin up on the job). There's no magic bullet to the process. It's not a fictional construct of Ivory Tower people. It's what works best in a market economy. It's simply a pay me now (in terms of time) or pay me later. It's true that the occasional prodigy bypasses large chunks of time, but they are the rare exception. The rest of us schmoe's are stuck with reality.

Now before you get in a twist about bedside skills, I have no disagreement with the concept/requirement that ALL nurses START with the same baseline of care knowledge and skills. It's silly to argue otherwise since there's plenty of evidence that at the entry level, the present system works. But why does that have to be the end of the story? Is bedside care the extent of the profession?

Non-health related skills like team dynamics, project management, and even cultural studies are all relevant to how the infrastructure operates that permits the bedside care to occur in the first place. Yeah, there's a shortage of nurses, regardless of whatever cause you like to cite. To me, that only heightens the need to have folks ENTERING the field with broader knowledge. If they come out of school with an understanding of multiple aspects of how the workplace operates, including the interpersonal aspects, then that's that much LESS time people have to go through the school of hard knocks to acquire. The very fact that there's a shortage demands that the future shift supervisors, unit managers, administrators, etc. come up to speed as soon as possible. As the people who currently occupy these positions retire in ever increasing numbers, the profession is going to need to replace them. I'm assuming that the desire is to replace these folks from INSIDE the profession. There simply isn't going to be time to accommodate just the OJT-based paradigm.

This shouldn't be about devaluing anybody. If it's a bad idea to make entry requirements revolve around a BSN, then I'd agree that attempting to do so would be dumb. What this should be about is recognizing that there IS value to traditional education. It's not all fluff and appearances. The extra effort spent up front SHOULD equate to some tangible benefit other than being a simple stepping stone to a higher degree. Not only is it fair, its necessary in light of the current dynamic of the population base.

So, while it's unfair to say that certificate/ADN, ect. paths to an RN isn't as valuable or professional as a BSN when entering the field, its equally unfair to claim that the additional education of a BSN degree has no worth.

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Specializes in Telemetry, ICU, Resource Pool, Dialysis.
ALL OTHER HEALTH CARE PROFESSIONALS HAVE AT LEAST A BACHELORS'S DEGREE AS ENTRY INTO PRACTICE, AND MOST HAVE ADVANCED TO A MASTERS AND NOW A DOCTORATE AS ENTRY INTO PRACTICE. EVEN DENTAL HYGEINISTS HAVE A BACHELORS DEGREE AS ENTRY INTO PRACTICE. PHYSICAL THERAPY ASSISTANTS HAVE AN ASSOCIATES DEGREE AS ENTRY INTO PRACTICE.

There is no good reason to continue with entry into practice that is less than a Bachelors Degree. It will unite us and prevent our profession from continualy being marginalized by hospitals. A Bachelors Degree professional is harder to replace and justify with a HS drop out. Nurses are a dime a dozen and hospitals just wait for the next class of suckers to graduate from "ABC Community College" to replace last years graduating class that have all quit. Victims of understaffing, overwork, treated like crap, and have gone on to greener pastures. There is no reason to make nurses happy, as we have seen with our shrinking paychecks. If there was really a shortage, our paychecks and benefits would have been increased significantly. As it is, they have not. Because there is no reason to.

I am of the opinion that the ultimate goals of hospitals and insurance companies is to completely change the profession. Make the professional practice that we now perform, into a non professional career, more in line with a "health care/ patient care technician", and shift the peofessional care that we now perform, to them. They will continue to pressure Congress to loosen the Visa requirements, and allow more foreign nurses in, who will not complain. One RN will supervise an entire floor/unit of non- professionals performing ALL OF THE PROFESSIONAL PRACTICES THAT ARE NOW RESERVED FOR RNS. I never thought that I would see the day where "medication aides" would take over the practice of medication administration. I had always though that was the last bastion that was untouchable. Silly me. What will be next?

Lindarn, RN, BSN, CCRN

Spokane, Washington

You make some really good points. However, what about the practical side of this issue. You compare nurses to PTs and Dental hygeinists. The sheer number of nurses needed to keep the healthcare system up and running is staggering. Nurses outnumber these other professions by a huge margin. Dentistry can survive without hygienists. PT is in demand, but not in the trenches, 24/7, in every specialty. Office hours, only, please. And one at a time. Oh, and you have to pay BEFORE you get treatment.

The entire education system would have to be revamped. Imagine funneling 3 times the number of students through the current BSN programs. Imagine the waiting lists. The government would have to step in and fund programs for higher education. How is this ever going to happen?

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I am earning a BSN because I value a bachelor's degree, not because I think other people will any more than an ADN. I have heard it will not get me any more money, more prestige, more opportunity, blah, blah, blah. It will get me the opportunity to persue future possibilities and will give me personal pride. It's a personal choice and as long as the ANA and others push for it, I think it is only wise to consider. What anyone else does is up to them, but I feel better getting it and like I will be better prepared for the future of nursing, not just the present. Maybe you can use this in your debate - it's not a reflection on anyone, just why I chose what I did. I already have one bachelor's so I got into a program where I will be done - prerecs and all - in 2 1/2 year's time. I am 20 months in (yes, I am counting!) right now. If I were in teh local community college, I woudl still not be doen with their prerecs to take prerecs and would then sit on a 3 year waiting list to do a 2 1/2 year program. Total time: 7-8 YEARS. No thanks. I think I will more than make up my tuition in the extra 5 years I will be working and gaining experience.

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I read that in Florida that a bill sign in 2002 the Florida's School Code Rewrite Bill includes a provision to allow Florida community colleges to begin offering bachelor degrees in nursing.

So far it allows three comunity college ADN programs to offer a Bachelor's Degree.

People pursue the ADN because it suits their needs. Many cannot afford anything other than the ADN program. Maybe if other states' community colleges converted the ASN/ADN to the BSN and gave the BSN at the end of that 4 semester of prereq's and four semester of nursing classes at the same cost more folks would consider it.

I have nothing against the ADN/ASN. It is the route I have chosen for my own career and compliments my other degrees.

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Specializes in Telemetry, ICU, Resource Pool, Dialysis.
I read that in Florida that a bill sign in 2002 the Florida's School Code Rewrite Bill includes a provision to allow Florida community colleges to begin offering bachelor degrees in nursing.

So far it allows three comunity college ADN programs to offer a Bachelor's Degree.

People pursue the ADN because it suits their needs. Many cannot afford anything other than the ADN program. Maybe if other states' community colleges converted the ASN/ADN to the BSN and gave the BSN at the end of that 4 semester of prereq's and four semester of nursing classes at the same cost more folks would consider it.

I have nothing against the ADN/ASN. It is the route I have chosen for my own career and compliments my other degrees.

That would start a whole new debate: Did you get your BSN at a community college or a university?

OR

Community college BSN vs University BSN

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That would start a whole new debate: Did you get your BSN at a community college or a university?

OR

Community college BSN vs University BSN

Haha true.... :rotfl:

Seems like we will always have something to fight about :p

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Specializes in Telemetry, ICU, Resource Pool, Dialysis.
Haha true.... :rotfl:

Seems like we will always have something to fight about :p

Yeah....:chuckle At least we can laugh about it!!!

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Specializes in 5 yrs OR, ASU Pre-Op 2 yr. ER.
And speaking of generalizations!!!!!!!!!!

Oh, yeah :stone

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Specializes in 5 yrs OR, ASU Pre-Op 2 yr. ER.
That would start a whole new debate: Did you get your BSN at a community college or a university?

OR

Community college BSN vs University BSN

I agree.

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i do have to say i've never seen a profession so plagued by whining and discontent. yet when i see medics and firefighters who became nurses, they're quite satisfied. nursing can be very rewarding if you approach it with an open mind and a willingness to work, rather than feeling that the world owes you to infinity, and that you are the most deserving person on earth. we live in a world where children die every day for want of a few handfuls of food. life's not fair, and by comparison, you're getting a damn good deal.

nursing isn't the most difficult job in the world. there are many professions that don't pay as well and have much less job security. to read the discussions, you'd think every other job pays 100 grand with 6 months paid vacation, while nurses are cheated and abused by evil corporations. baloney!!!! if it's not good enough for you, then i'd get out and do something else where you are rewarded what you think you're worth .... though i think you might be disappointed there as well.

fortunately, 20 years from now, adn will still be the standard... because it works.

and i don't want to belong to any nursing organization. i don't want anyone else representing me.

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Specializes in Gerontological Nursing, Acute Rehab.
i do have to say i've never seen a profession so plagued by whining and discontent. yet when i see medics and firefighters who became nurses, they're quite satisfied. nursing can be very rewarding if you approach it with an open mind and a willingness to work, rather than feeling that the world owes you to infinity, and that you are the most deserving person on earth. we live in a world where children die every day for want of a few handfuls of food. life's not fair, and by comparison, you're getting a damn good deal.

nursing isn't the most difficult job in the world. there are many professions that don't pay as well and have much less job security. to read the discussions, you'd think every other job pays 100 grand with 6 months paid vacation, while nurses are cheated and abused by evil corporations. baloney!!!! if it's not good enough for you, then i'd get out and do something else where you are rewarded what you think you're worth .... though i think you might be disappointed there as well.

fortunately, 20 years from now, adn will still be the standard... because it works.

and i don't want to belong to any nursing organization. i don't want anyone else representing me.

:yeahthat:

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