I have been a RN since 1989, graduated with a ASN. Since that time I worked in ICU, Open heart surgery, PICU, Med/Surg and Behavioral Health. I have had the pleasure to have worked as a Nurse Executive only to be told after 25 years to get a BSN. I have a BS in Public Policy and Organizational Leadership and Master of Arts in Theology/Counseling. I asked my employee why after working 13 years a their Executive Nurse on Med/Surg/Peds that they thought I needed a BSN. No answer just demands or lose my job. I told them to stuff it! At 57 I was not going back to school for a BSN when it would only achieve increasing my debt ratio.
Since then I haven't been able to hire on anywhere but a Nursing Home. Let me tell you it is a blessing to work in geriatrics, yet the BSN's that work there are clueless, needing alot of training and retraining which I don't mind doing. It just saddens me that at the end of my career Nursing still has its quirks like they did in the 80's. Remember the period when medical assistants where hired to work in ICUs? That fiasco lasted less then a year.
God bless all of you who have had to face this new fiasco of BSN only apply. I am wondering who agrees with BSN only need to apply?
Maybe you feel you got so much out of the BSN program because you initially obtained your nursing credentials "outside the United States." The ADN and BSN programs here are almost identical, as far as the actual nursing classes are concerned. My ADN to BSN program just involved a few more humanities and fluff classes.
I can look back to a work experience including 9 years of ICU/CCU and almost 7 years of different med/surg tele and step down, clinical management and others.
I was considered a "Diploma RN" because my education was outside of the US ( I did not really agree with this put down but had no choice as to accept it) and went back to school as soon as I was able to pay for it.
This month I graduated from the RN to BSN program and I need to say that although I stayed up to date, member of professional organization, reading latest literature all along - I learned very valuable things in the BSN program that are relevant to my practice.
I agree that there is a lot of merit in working as a Diploma or ADN RN - I had a very solid education and good and safe nursing practice. I felt prepared to be a leader through all my experiences and readings BUT I feel I gained a much more solid knowledge through the BSN program. I can say that seating through statistics as an adult learner was not always pleasant but there were so many great classes I did and enjoyed!
Nurses as a profession is moving towards the BSN as entry level for RN I think and the MSN as entry for leadership like manager positions. The hospitals I worked at all required their managers to be BSN educated and a couple of years ago required them to be MSN or similar or to be enrolled in the program.
The stakes are getting higher - just look at the step from Master's prepared NP to the DNP (which I am supportive of).
I also found that a lot of employers will support nurses go back to school with flexible work time, tuition reimbursement or even have classes in the hospital, some offer study groups.
I do not think it is about "dumping" lesser educated RN, I think it is about getting the nursing profession up to a standard that is high and fits the responsibilities we have.
Personally I just applied for graduate school to obtain my MSN. Not because I want to move up into leadership, I am happy as a clinical nurse in the field. I got so much out of the BSN program and hope to gain even more insight through the MSN program.
I do not think the BSN program as an entry level will prevent nurses from making the wrong decision and get into a profession that is actually a bad fit for them. There will still be the gap between the (often romantic) idea of being a nurse and the "culture shock" as a new graduate RN with potential for dropping out of the profession altogether.
Would you be willing to share where you went to school? It may be helpful to some of AN's users. And I also "like" your post.
the BSNs have more theoretical base, but generally less practical base. Individuals vary, etc.
I've heard this bias on allnurses against entry-level BSNs (and especially accelerated BSNs) so often I believed it. However, my manager hired me in part because I had double the senior preceptorship hours as the ASN grads. I just wanted to throw that out there to counter the "quickie degree lacking in hands-on clinicals" mentality I see here against ABSN's.
I understand your frustration, however, i believe strongly that in order for someone to move on up in the nursing field (executive, management, etc), one needs a higher degree (such as a BSN degree or higher in NURSING), not a higher degree in any other subject. Were talking about nursing after all.
It does not make sense to me that an associate degree or diploma person can take these higher ranking job over nurses with a higher degrees, its not logical, regardless if that person has more experience. Honestly, it won't look good (in the eyes of many people) for our nursing field. There is a reason for a higher degree (BSN). That is why the tides are turning towards nurses having a BSN degree these days.
In six months I will be 63. I've nursed for over 40 years. Back in the late 70s, early 80s I started taking courses for a BSN. Well, over the years I got side tracked and never finished. I'm a 3 year diploma nurse who graduated in 1973. Finally, in the mid 90s I was financially stable enough and the kid was on his own and my spouse was making good money, so I thought about school again. The college I had attended now had a very decent BSN program but now they informed me all my credits were too old! They said I had to take them all again. There was absolutely no way I was ever going to repeat organic and inorganic chemistry again. So three years ago a friend of mine who is a clinical instructor there told me to check again. I did and they said 'sure, come on, we'll accept all your previous credits'. Then they gave me the price for one credit hour. I about fainted. Now, I have 99 credit hours, with a 3.0 average, and no degree. And will probably retire in a few months as my knees and back are well and truly shot. I refuse to play the game anymore.
Specializes in Critical Care, ED, Cath lab, CTPAC,Trauma.
I understand your frustration, however, i believe strongly that in order for someone to move on up in the nursing field (executive, management, etc), one needs a higher degree (such as a BSN degree or higher in NURSING), not a higher degree in any other subject. Were talking about nursing after all.
It does not make sense to me that an associate degree or diploma person can take these higher ranking job over nurses with a higher degrees, its not logical, regardless if that person has more experience. Honestly, it won't look good (in the eyes of many people) for our nursing field. There is a reason for a higher degree (BSN). That is why the tides are turning towards nurses having a BSN degree these days.
Before all this degree hype....and there were VERY few BSN nurses and even less MSN nurses...who do you think held these positions?
That's right diploma and ADN grads who were promoted on merit and ability to lead...they had the qualities of leadership. They were hired and successful based on ability and merit and Not just a few additional years in school and thousands of dollars in debt. I actually think nursing was, in many ways, better off.
Before all this degree hype....and there were VERY few BSN nurses and even less MSN nurses...who do you think held these positions?
That's right diploma and ADN grads who were promoted on merit and ability to lead...they had the qualities of leadership. They were hired and successful based on ability and merit and Not just a few additional years in school and thousands of dollars in debt. I actually think nursing was, in many ways, better off.
That is v. true. And there was also a time when physicians, lawyers, teachers, etc., didn't spend years going to school, didn't have to have advanced degrees (or any degree), mostly learned through on the job training, and did a perfectly good job as physicians, lawyers, teachers, etc. But times and expectations change. Lots of occupations and professions have gone through these same "growing pains." We're not going to go back to the "good old days." People can sit around and complain about that, or they can accommodate to the "new normal" and keep their careers alive and moving forward.
You comment on people being promoted on the basis of leadership and "not just a few additional years in school and thousands of dollars in debt" (emphasis mine). So many people here always talk about this as a zero-sum, either/or question. The only two possibilities are either experienced, skilled diploma and ADN nurses or BSN or graduate-prepared nurses who are presumed, for the sake of the discussion, to have no meaningful clinical experience, knowledge, or ability. Also, in these discussions, there is always the presumption, even insistence, that returning to school to complete a BSN requires, by definition, without exception, taking on large amounts of debt. Is it really so inconceivable that there are nurses with BSNs or graduate degrees who also have substantial clinical experience and leadership qualities? Do you really see nurses with no qualifications, ability, or experience but a degree "higher" than yours getting promoted into leadership/management positions? (If that's actually happening, that's not an employer I'd want to work for.)
I'm know that I'm not the only nurse (not even the only nurse here) who has both many years of solid clinical experience and a BSN. Or the only nurse here who was able to complete a BSN (after initially entering nursing via a hospital-based diploma program) that did not cost me an arm and a leg (in my case, it did not involve any student debt (or assistance from my employer at the time) - I was able to pay out-of-pocket as I went without it being any significant hardship).
I have no problem or argument with nurses who don't want to go back to school; there are lots of legitimate reasons for that to not be a workable option for lots of individuals, and I don't criticize anyone who feels that's not a good choice for her/him. But times are changing (have changed) in nursing, and don't be surprised when that choice significantly limits your professional options. And I do get tired of the arguments about how it's unreasonable and impossible for people to do. It's not. It seems to me that nursing has bent over backwards to make it as easy as possible (almost embarrassingly so) to do.
I agree with you that, in many ways, nursing used to be much better off. :) But it doesn't really matter what you or I, or any other individual nurses, think. The train has left the station; our choices are to be on the train, or get left behind.
Do you really see nurses with no qualifications, ability, or experience but a degree "higher" than yours getting promoted into leadership/management positions? (If that's actually happening, that's not an employer I'd want to work for.)
I've seen that happen for forty years! And not just at one facility! Admin will do that to get them away from patient contact. Can't nurse your way out of a paper bag? Bahbing, you are now the head nurse of Unit 4! Gave a bolus of digitalis? Just a wave of our magic want and you are now the nurse educator.
I have seen it over and over again, nurses who cannot handle taking care of patients suddenly get put into management positions. We have lots of people who were terrible nurses, or who made nursing mistakes, or who lack actual hands-on experience, who have been placed in management. The talk at my facility is that they leave the smarter nurses at the bedside and place the inferior ones as supervisors, unit managers, etc.
applewhitern, BSN, RN
1,871 Posts
Maybe you feel you got so much out of the BSN program because you initially obtained your nursing credentials "outside the United States." The ADN and BSN programs here are almost identical, as far as the actual nursing classes are concerned. My ADN to BSN program just involved a few more humanities and fluff classes.