I have been a RN since 1989, graduated with a ASN. Since that time I worked in ICU, Open heart surgery, PICU, Med/Surg and Behavioral Health. I have had the pleasure to have worked as a Nurse Executive only to be told after 25 years to get a BSN. I have a BS in Public Policy and Organizational Leadership and Master of Arts in Theology/Counseling. I asked my employee why after working 13 years a their Executive Nurse on Med/Surg/Peds that they thought I needed a BSN. No answer just demands or lose my job. I told them to stuff it! At 57 I was not going back to school for a BSN when it would only achieve increasing my debt ratio.
Since then I haven't been able to hire on anywhere but a Nursing Home. Let me tell you it is a blessing to work in geriatrics, yet the BSN's that work there are clueless, needing alot of training and retraining which I don't mind doing. It just saddens me that at the end of my career Nursing still has its quirks like they did in the 80's. Remember the period when medical assistants where hired to work in ICUs? That fiasco lasted less then a year.
God bless all of you who have had to face this new fiasco of BSN only apply. I am wondering who agrees with BSN only need to apply?
Specializes in Mental Health, Gerontology, Palliative.
Help me out here (non US) whats an ASN qualfication? And how does that differ from BSN (bachelor of science major in nursing?). What would the length of study be to upskill to the BSN?
In NZ we have a registered nurse (who has done a bachelor in nursing) and enrolled nurses (who do a diploma in enrolled nursing). Some years ago, nursing council decided to discontinue the enrolled nurse scope of practice. Many uber experienced enrolled nurses were shuttled out of ICU, PICU, theatre etc and side ways into long term care facilities. Unfortunately the OPs experience seems to be all too common.
On the one positive note. Nursing council have since realised that it was utter stupidity to discontinue the role of the enroled nurse, and we now have them back in previously RN only wards and facilities.
ADN/ASN means Associate Degree Nursing/Associate Science in Nursing. It is a "two year" degree program from a community college,meaning one is in college for four years like a BSN, but gets half the recognition. It also costs less than half as much. It is considered the freshman/sophomore years because one does not pay extra for the exact same classes at the university level.
Sorry, but if Masters-prepared nurses accept this, then the bedside is where they should be. What is the point of paying megabucks in tuition to make it to square one? Who in the hell is sitting so high up on the **** horse that he or she feels s/he can keep everybody else 'in their place'? How dare any 'highest-degreed' (pardon my terminology, but receiving this BSN hasn't changed who I am) bottom-line RN decide that just because he, she, or they had money to stay in or return to school for a hundred years past freshman stage makes them so much more important and the rest of us a bunch of expendable nobodies?
The leaders of nurses were/are supposed to help 'manage-up' and support the profession as a whole, thereby improving patient outcomes, or so I thought....not implement 'preferences' that will eventually lead to an annihilation. It does not take a masters degree to shove a pile of **** down the toilet. I learned how to toss cow chips and side-step manure in my grandDaddy's pastures before I could spell the **** (no pun intended). A masters-prepared nurse shoveling bedpans as entry level can't tell me a **** thing! That is the quickest way to show what a joke it is to be a nurse in the public eye. How can anyone say that they have 'mastered' nursing in this case when all they've done was get through the front door. At my age, I will be dead and gone when this happens...thank the Almighty (or blame the inexperienced, new grad nurse with the MSN).
It is high time (or past time) we stand up for what is right because somebody somewhere is on one hell of an ego trip to make these demands.
Now, I know I just went ballistic on something that has not happened (yet), but my anger, more like my passion, is because my parents sacrificed to put me through LPN school years ago when we already had nothing; I sacrificed to put myself through college when I had nothing (and lost a little more in the process) because of the attitudes towards LPNs; sacrificed (casually) to once again put myself through another nursing (BSN) program because then, even the ASN that led to the RN licesne wasn't worth the paper it was written on (while I had just a little less nothing than before), only to hear that somewhere, they've started a MSN-preferred trend out in the horizon. Sooner or later, the **** gonna backfire in that people are going to stop sacrificing to enter or remain in a profession that cares so little for its members. When that happens, Dr. Nurse will be the bedside nurse....up **** creek without a paddle.
Whoever is doing this cannot do it without our help. Being passive, we are helping them to belittle us and our hard-earned knowledge that was acquired with/through years of blood, sweat, tears, puke, sputum, etc. Our profession doesn't belong to the ANA or the State Board of Nurses because we are them. Without us, they would cease to exist. They are exceedingly out-numbered, yet they are being allowed to run over the masses. Leaders cannot lead if they have no followers.....don't need a certificate, diploma, associates, bachelors, masters, or doctorate degree to know that. Some things will never replace common sense. After all, how many times have any of you read a new policy and that one question came out of your mouth or popped into your head: "what ******* sense does that make?"
Disclaimer: I hope my excessive use of asterisks doesn't offend anyone. I changed the tone A LOT by replacing the ##!$&@@'s. I won't be offended if my edits are edited even more.
I can not "like" this more.
My little LPN diploma was just fine in a remote, tiny, ACCESS facility. Patients are sent to higher levels of care if they do not have predictable outcomes, or present with complexities that the facility doesn't support. (Notice I said the FACILITY -and should say can not support....)
Then comes big business. All of a sudden we are BSN crazed, importing and outscoring....because, quite frankly, BSN's do not get experience in the facility. They can not move on to be in level 1 trauma when the most that happens is an occasional cardiac drip until the ambulance comes to transport.
There's a captive audience. The very small population is such that we all know these patients well. And know when something is not right. And stabilize and send out.
We have had BSN's who come to work and say "you are kidding me, this is a nursing home". Emergency nurses who say "in my neck of the woods, this would be urgent care, we can not call this an emergency room!!"
My point is this. There is room for LPN's and diploma RN's in small remote access facilities. That are run quite well by ASN/ADN RN's.
In this kind of facility, to require multi-year bedside nurses, or multi year managers who have their associates in nursing to get a BSN at their own cost is ludicrous. And puts feathers on caps of others than the nurses.
Nurses who have specialty-specific certifications would be much more valuable. If this was about better patient care/outcomes. But it is not.
That is NOT true...the staff does NOT need to ALL be BSN graduates and the Magnet stamp of approval means little to the public. It is an expensive process that really has little to no impact on patient care of nurses in MOST facilities.Just more subjective interpretation by some management.
And I am oh so curious as to who is the other 20%.....
No worries. I've seen how this whole topic has gotten people rather passionate. :)
I didn't realize that there were accelerated programs that didn't require a prior degree.
I don't think my science education is superior, just different. I'm grateful for my science background because it did enhance my understanding of clinical concepts. You, too, are an asset to the profession. You clearly have 10 years of experience which you can't buy or learn in school. Additionally, you're continuing your education which I really respect. Cheers.
I also attended an accelerated BSN program. I didn't say they were all worthless(if it came off that way I apologize) but the ones at for-profit diploma mills certainly are. The students in the accelerated MSN program at my university all have degrees in other fields and are brilliant individuals. They actually give me hope for profession.
There are accelerated programs that do not require prior degrees, just a great deal of money. They are graduating idiots.
BTW- your science education is far superior to mine. It does make mine look like less because mine was pathetic in comparison. Your education will make you an assest to this profession.
Can you tell me some of these accelerated programs that require no previous degree? When you say accelerated, do you means programs that run around 15 months?
Can you tell me some of these accelerated programs that require no previous degree? When you say accelerated, do you means programs that run around 15 months?
I believe that is what they advertise. I have seen ads for diploma mills that say "become a nurse in as little as 12 months!"
I worked with someone who went to one of these programs. He was a good clinician, but he took an unpaid "residency" (basically being a slave) after graduation. These for profit schools have abysmal graduation rates, even worse NCLEX pass rates, and are taking advantage of their students. This isn't just my opinion, the schools I am speaking of have been investigated by the Fed for basically stealing financial aid and sticking kids with a worthless education and a lifetime of debt. There are some (probably those with prior degrees) who survive these programs but they owe what I owe for a BSN & MSN put together.
Please. List some schools that will give you a nursing degree in 15 months without a prior degree. Why shouldn't we know about this program that is being investigated and give a favor to people who might be lured by these schools. Also, please give me an example of a for-profit school that is awarding nursing degrees to applicants with or without bachelors degrees. Are you saying that schools like Walden are offering nursing degrees in 15 months to people with or without previous bachelors?
Specializes in Oncology; medical specialty website.
You are correct I misspoke it is the BON that directly approves these programs and the ANA has strong influence on the standards. I stand corrected on the technicality. I generalized and I should know better than that when speaking with nurses... . My ASN program was NOT a community college degree or from the vo-tech. I went to a four year college, brick and mortar (of course because we didn't have computers back then ). I had a quality education that didn't deter me getting from management positions ALL with a ASN . I don't know about you but when I graduated, right around when you graduated, the diploma programs we just being phased out and the ASN programs were "new-ish". However, I am from the midwest....maybe it took longer to get there.
I am glad your program was informative for you. I graduated from a brick and mortar, well respected, 4 year college that emphasized that to be a Nurse Practitioner (BSN level then) or management it was going to require a more advanced degree. I managed to not get that degree until about 6 years ago, had a lustrous career in Senior management without the BSN. I agree 100% that the entry needs to be BSN from one point forward.
Alright nursing leaders....Make the decision and do it then. Stop the passive aggressive behavior, get a back bone, make the mandate.
All this lip service really annoys me. I believe the reason they don't make the mandate is that they would have to grandfather already licensed RN's into the legislation and lose all that RN-BSN tuition revenue. So instead they decide to be passive aggressive and make threats to seasoned higher paid nurses about their jobs hoping they'll leave and they can save money. The CEO's are happy because they just cut tuition reimbursement and they KNOW a certain percentage of the high paid seasoned nurse will just leave. Done...budget decreased. I have heard this personally right out of the horses mouth.
I find it sad, frustrating, and embarrassing, and that NO ONE is willing to stand up for these VALUABLE seasoned nurses and are so willing to toss them and their contributions to the curb because they might not have taken statistics 30 years ago. I for one can't stand by quietly while these nurses are verbally degraded and marginalized. It is shameful that little to no regard is shown for their expertise and contributions to this "honorable" profession. I am appalled that there is essentially no one who will stand up for them. Those who do are called anti-education, anti intellectual and are "not supportive" of the "profession". I support education. I have my BSN. My daughter just started her BSN program. I have made it very clear to her, with the trend in nursing, the BSN is NOT her terminal degree.
I know it is shocking but at one time respect members and leaders were not college educated and they were able to move the profession forward. Sometimes I think we were better off then...we didn't bicker over a piece paper a few an english and math classes. We respect the seasoned nurses and we learned from them. Nurses were promoted because they were stellar NURSES and were leaders and mentors of their peers....instead of no bedside experience, thousands of dollars of debt and a few more college courses with a degree. They worked the trenches. They had been there done that.... I think they were better leaders coming from the trenches.
Yessss.... this propaganda has been chanted FOR YEARS...at no point however, was there ever an indication that an experienced nurse, after 26 years, at the bedside was going to be jobless and forced out of their jobs by new grads that had 4 more semesters of math, history, art, and english than the ASN/ADN. I guarantee, with a few exceptions, the seasoned nurse will out nurse the "BSN".
Yes, employers have every right to hire who they wish...I think it is a shame that we as a group are not standing up for our seasoned nurses and value what they bring to the table. "We" should be ashamed to allow the mistreatment those who have put in their time in this soul sucking profession. Just because they have the right to do as they wish....doesn't mean we should stand by quietly and watch our fellow nurses be bullied.
Sorry for the soap box rant....but just because it is being done...doesn't make it right.
There were plenty of good diploma programs when I graduated 30 years ago. We got an excellent education at the program I attended; even now, when I would have an older patient ask me where I went to nursing school, the response was always so positive.
It was possible to get a high quality education at a diploma program. I don't know why this surprises people.
Specializes in Adult and Pediatric Vascular Access, Paramedic.
I am in process of getting my BSN, not because I want to, or because I think it will make me a better nurse, because I don't think it will, but because I have to if I want to remain in nursing.
To those who think B.S.N. is needed for better "critical thinking", guess again! I have an associates degree in paramedicine which requires me to think critically every shift! It is not about the degree its about experience and brains!!
I live in a part of the U.S. where now, even small hospitals have "BSN Required" written into EVERY R.N. job description! It is VERY frustrating, as I heard from a NP who works in an ER at a hospital that will hire B.S.N. only. She reports that its like the blind leading the blind in the ER, new grads teaching new grads, because they are putting a higher value on book education rather than experience, which to me is far more valuable than any book!!
It is a shame in my opinion! I would rather have an experienced nurse care for me with a diploma or ADN over some rookie nurse with a B.S.N.
Okey, dokey. Here I go again: Not all ADN degrees are from "community colleges." Mine was from a 4 year university, and all ADN students took the same classes alongside the BSN students. We were labeled "junior" and "senior," NOT freshmen and sophomore. The only thing omitted was some general education classes, like more literature and history classes, which most of us either already had, or we took later on after we started working as registered nurses. I just hate it when people lump all ADN programs into "community colleges," or "junior colleges." That is so not true. Oh, and let us just remember, same NCLEX, same scope of practice. I have two prior bachelor degrees, an ADN, and a BSN, but I never try to make it sound like an ADN is "less than" like so many people here on AN.
There were plenty of good diploma programs when I graduated 30 years ago. We got an excellent education at the program I attended; even now, when I would have an older patient ask me where I went to nursing school, the response was always so positive.
It was possible to get a high quality education at a diploma program. I don't know why this surprises people.
Ditto. I got an excellent nursingeducation at my diploma program (the longer I've been out of school and the more I've seen, the more I appreciate how excellent it was). However, they also encouraged us to plan on completing a BSN at some point after we graduated, because that was clearly the future of nursing.
. My ASN program was NOT a community college degree or from the vo-tech. I went to a four year college, brick and mortar (of course because we didn't have computers back then 
). I had a quality education that didn't deter me getting from management positions ALL with a ASN 
. I don't know about you but when I graduated, right around when you graduated, the diploma programs we just being phased out and the ASN programs were "new-ish". However, I am from the midwest....maybe it took longer to get there.
Tenebrae, BSN, RN
2,021 Posts
Help me out here (non US) whats an ASN qualfication? And how does that differ from BSN (bachelor of science major in nursing?). What would the length of study be to upskill to the BSN?
In NZ we have a registered nurse (who has done a bachelor in nursing) and enrolled nurses (who do a diploma in enrolled nursing). Some years ago, nursing council decided to discontinue the enrolled nurse scope of practice. Many uber experienced enrolled nurses were shuttled out of ICU, PICU, theatre etc and side ways into long term care facilities. Unfortunately the OPs experience seems to be all too common.
On the one positive note. Nursing council have since realised that it was utter stupidity to discontinue the role of the enroled nurse, and we now have them back in previously RN only wards and facilities.