I have been a RN since 1989, graduated with a ASN. Since that time I worked in ICU, Open heart surgery, PICU, Med/Surg and Behavioral Health. I have had the pleasure to have worked as a Nurse Executive only to be told after 25 years to get a BSN. I have a BS in Public Policy and Organizational Leadership and Master of Arts in Theology/Counseling. I asked my employee why after working 13 years a their Executive Nurse on Med/Surg/Peds that they thought I needed a BSN. No answer just demands or lose my job. I told them to stuff it! At 57 I was not going back to school for a BSN when it would only achieve increasing my debt ratio.
Since then I haven't been able to hire on anywhere but a Nursing Home. Let me tell you it is a blessing to work in geriatrics, yet the BSN's that work there are clueless, needing alot of training and retraining which I don't mind doing. It just saddens me that at the end of my career Nursing still has its quirks like they did in the 80's. Remember the period when medical assistants where hired to work in ICUs? That fiasco lasted less then a year.
God bless all of you who have had to face this new fiasco of BSN only apply. I am wondering who agrees with BSN only need to apply?
Okey, dokey. Here I go again: Not all ADN degrees are from "community colleges." Mine was from a 4 year university, and all ADN students took the same classes alongside the BSN students. We were labeled "junior" and "senior," NOT freshmen and sophomore. The only thing omitted was some general education classes, like more literature and history classes, which most of us either already had, or we took later on after we started working as registered nurses. I just hate it when people lump all ADN programs into "community colleges," or "junior colleges." That is so not true. Oh, and let us just remember, same NCLEX, same scope of practice. I have two prior bachelor degrees, an ADN, and a BSN, but I never try to make it sound like an ADN is "less than" like so many people here on AN.
Is there something shameful about going to a community college or a junior college? That's exactly what they are - it's just a description. There's nothing inherently shameful about them - at least IMHO.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with going to a community college. I attended a community college and got my A.S. in liberal arts. I then attended one of the country's best Universities (according to US News and World Report, etc...) and I can tell you that the depth and rigor of my education there was far beyond what I received at the community college level. Universities have Professors that often have doctoral degrees as well as extensive research experience. That's not to say that there aren't Ph.D. prepared Professors and a good education achievable from a community college, but realize that they are inherently different.
There's absolutely nothing wrong with going to one of the country's best universities. My family member attended a world class university in the US where the teaching assistants did most of the teaching, and the doctorally prepared faculty were too absorbed in their research work to be available to the students. When my family member transferred to a state university they received a far better quality of education. Gosh, do universities have professors with doctoral degrees and extensive research experience? I experienced some doctorally prepared professors in my BSN program, and, frankly, the quality of some of these instructors teaching was far inferior to the level I experienced in my community college ADN program.
Having attended both community college and university I can attest that I received a better education from the community college. My instructors were all terminally degreed in their fields or actively pursuing doctorates. I cannot say the same for the university. They hire inexperienced MSNs fresh out of school. I know this because I have seen colleagues who have been on the floor less than five years get jobs teaching as soon as they graduate.
State school/community college/"junior" college equal less funds out. More financial aid opportunity.
A private university is 5 times the cost (ie one of my kids went to state school, out of pocket $20,000. The other to a "oh too posh" private university. Cost $45,000--a YEAR--YUP, A YEAR!!) Get sucked in to paying for labels.
And although some may think I am incorrect, never once has "oh, Susie, Rn went to Ivy/posh/upper crust school so she will have the definite edge over Cindy, Rn who went to community college" have ever been into play in any resume viewing or peer interviews I have ever been involved in......You may think it happens, but it does not. People want to know that you know the mission statement of the facility you are applying to. They want to know how your clinical experiences help shape you into a nurse. I want to know one is well rounded. However, your quarter of a million dollar education means little over someone elses. It is all in presentation.
For me, I was quite happy where I was. I am old and crusty at this point, and no desire to take on additional debt. Especially with no other monetary value for what is put out. (ooops, sorry, my 25 cents per hour more.....) no thanks. And if the belief is that I can't do the job I did very well for a couple of decades today, but I was a good nurse in practice yesterday....well, what can I say other than let the blind lead the blind over the cliff, hope no one is killed in the process...except for those few nurses that people like me "mentored" and showed the way. But they are off to bigger and better things once that year is up.
Specializes in Infectious Disease, Neuro, Research.
I'm always a bit hesitant to post on this topic, but its been awhile, so what the heck...
The BSN requirement is an artificial socio-economic barrier created to "thin the herd" because colleges and Universities have a vested financial interest, and hiring facilities have liability limitation incentives. Back 40-odd years ago, with the liberalization of student loan policies, followed by the diminished entrance requirements enacted in the '80s, Higher Ed realized they had a whole new customer base. All they have to do is keep them flowing through and maintain a reasonable pass-rate. Community Colleges were not a part of this market, until fairly recently; ergo, when they start cranking grads out, the job market is flooded, meaning the University programs are in danger of dying (because of the significantly lower cost of the CCs).
Along with the entrance of CCs into Nursing Ed, the Diploma Programs began to die off. Why should an institution invest thousands of dollars into an employee likely to leave w/in 5 years(this is also a fairly new phenomenon, IMO r/lack of real depth in Nursing Ed. Whooooole other discussion), not to mention instructors, insurance, etc..(No "?" because this is a rhetorical statement)
So (Higher Ed says), how do we deal with this, and not collapse the network of Community Colleges relying on all this loan funding? We network with them! The CCs "prep" for entrance into the Univer$$ity; they split the funds.
My experience has been that neither Community Colleges nor Universities turn out notably "superior" grads(i.e., statistically quantifiable). Dilpoma programs do.
My experience has been that neither Community Colleges nor Universities turn out notably "superior" grads(i.e., statistically quantifiable). Dilpoma programs do.
Your personal experience yields "significantly quantifiable" results but the myriad of published literature in the topic does not?
"published literature"... is this what makes a superior nurse to you? Wow...
Published literature doesn't make a superior nurse, that doesn't even makes sense, it provides the evidence to support practice. It is the scientific process.
Specializes in Infectious Disease, Neuro, Research.
Your personal experience yields "significantly quantifiable" results but the myriad of published literature in the topic does not?
Sent from my iPhone.
If you re-read my post, I did not say that; you have inferred meaning. I have worked on a University affiliated campus for just under 20 years. Having worked with 2 and 4 year students, the BSNs have more theoretical base, but generally less practical base. Individuals vary, etc., etc., and outcomes will vary regionally depending on the number of non-traditional students and ADN/ASNs completing the BSN program. Yes, there is substantial lit on the "better outcomes" associated with BSN staff.
Having worked in research for 10 of my years, I would note that I am unable to find substantial literature indicating bias-weight r/study population and pre-BSN levels of practice, years in practice before obtaining BSN and independence of BSN-level ed vs. institutional outcome-measure improvement initiatives in the previous xx number of years prior to the study(i.e., the hospital emphasizes reduction of MRSA transmission and institutes a training policy, vs. MRSA transmission among BSN and non-BSN RNs.)
Specializes in Infectious Disease, Neuro, Research.
Please don't misunderstand, I'm not spouting "BSN Hate". I am noting the significant financial and political incentives that have been brought about by "dumbing down" that educational system. If someone who can barely read at a 10th grade level can be accepted into a 4 year college, there is no "superiority" in the "level" of education. I would also note the SES inequality inherent in the model. Lower SES may gain entrance but have significantly higher drop-out rates and higher career change rates for those that do complete a program. Higher SES is an overall indicator of higher capacity for learning, in, "time for development purchased", if in no other way.
I can look back to a work experience including 9 years of ICU/CCU and almost 7 years of different med/surg tele and step down, clinical management and others.
I was considered a "Diploma RN" because my education was outside of the US ( I did not really agree with this put down but had no choice as to accept it) and went back to school as soon as I was able to pay for it.
This month I graduated from the RN to BSN program and I need to say that although I stayed up to date, member of professional organization, reading latest literature all along - I learned very valuable things in the BSN program that are relevant to my practice.
I agree that there is a lot of merit in working as a Diploma or ADN RN - I had a very solid education and good and safe nursing practice. I felt prepared to be a leader through all my experiences and readings BUT I feel I gained a much more solid knowledge through the BSN program. I can say that seating through statistics as an adult learner was not always pleasant but there were so many great classes I did and enjoyed!
Nurses as a profession is moving towards the BSN as entry level for RN I think and the MSN as entry for leadership like manager positions. The hospitals I worked at all required their managers to be BSN educated and a couple of years ago required them to be MSN or similar or to be enrolled in the program.
The stakes are getting higher - just look at the step from Master's prepared NP to the DNP (which I am supportive of).
I also found that a lot of employers will support nurses go back to school with flexible work time, tuition reimbursement or even have classes in the hospital, some offer study groups.
I do not think it is about "dumping" lesser educated RN, I think it is about getting the nursing profession up to a standard that is high and fits the responsibilities we have.
Personally I just applied for graduate school to obtain my MSN. Not because I want to move up into leadership, I am happy as a clinical nurse in the field. I got so much out of the BSN program and hope to gain even more insight through the MSN program.
I do not think the BSN program as an entry level will prevent nurses from making the wrong decision and get into a profession that is actually a bad fit for them. There will still be the gap between the (often romantic) idea of being a nurse and the "culture shock" as a new graduate RN with potential for dropping out of the profession altogether.
one of my kids went to state school, out of pocket $20,000. The other to a "oh too posh" private university. Cost $45,000--a YEAR--YUP, A YEAR!!) Get sucked in to paying for labels.
subee, MSN, CRNA
1 Article; 6,121 Posts
Is there something shameful about going to a community college or a junior college? That's exactly what they are - it's just a description. There's nothing inherently shameful about them - at least IMHO.