As nurses are we just Trained well behavedMonkeys

Nurses General Nursing

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Ok I know the title to this thread could be concieved as a little argumentative but I hope it opens a good discussion.

Where I work the doctors are treated like demi gods, without exception. They can make mistakes, be rude to the patient, treat the nursing staff like something the cat dragged in and they never seem to get into any trouble. They go through the hospital complaining about nursing staff.

As a nurse who has been trained to question practice, apply evidence based practice and believe nursing is a seperate profession to doctors, I find myself in a position of being a handmaiden to the Doctors, now I know my hospital cannot be unique-but Doctors write orders and Nurses carry out the orders period. If orders aren't clear because why should the doctors speak to the nurses, then nurses spend hours of each day searching out doctors to clarify order. then spend 10mins on the phone being spoken to like a child in the nastiest tone possible-the kind of tone you would reserve for a mass murderer.

I have spoken to the powers that be and I have firmly told offending doctors that I dont understand why I should be spoken to in such a manner to no avail After all doctors are demi-gods and nurses are trained monkeys carrying out orders- meaning Doctors bring in the 'business' nurses seem to be dispensable. In my hospital nurses are writen up for everything, if I have a problem with a different department then I told write them up- What happened to dealing with said problem and try tyo ensure it doesnt happen again through education and training. If we cant support each other as nurses then we have no chance against the establishment.

Specializes in Utilization Management.

I think the culture between docs and the rest of the staff definitely varies at different hospitals and shifts.

At this hospital, the docs are very friendly and nice on the whole, so it's easier to blow off the couple of cranky, impolite ones.

Specializes in Peds, PICU, Home health, Dialysis.

I've never understood why many nurses are intimidated by the docs. I am merely a nursing student, but the physicians do not intimidate me at all. I just go about my business, and if a physician is rude to me (it has happened on a few occasions), I just smile and walk away. I don't stress about it.. its not worth my energy to stress over another arrogant physician. Perhaps it is different as a staff nurse because it seems they are even frieghtened to ask the doc a question while they are rounding and they act like they are walking on egg shells.

For example: in clinicals the other day I had asked my nurse about when my patient was going to be discharged because it seemed pointless she was even in the hospital anymore, and the nurse said "well the doctor has not written a discharge order yet". So I asked, "well have you asked the resident or the attending what her discharge plans are?", and she said "no... I don't want to ask him.. he will soon or later round on her and write her an order." So I took it upon myself to ask and the doc was kind and polite and said "thanks for the update... I will order a PT consult and as long as she is able to ambulate without assistance, we can discharge her." Sure enough, she was discharged that afternoon.

I always thought about pursuing med school someday... but I discovered that med students and residents main priority is to assure their lips are firmly pressed on the attendings behind all day long. I am not sure if I could manage 7 years of school and training kissing the attendings butt to help boost their ego even more!

Specializes in ORTHOPAEDICS-CERTIFIED SINCE 89.

Madwife don't you change ONE inflection. YOU have a beautiful accent. English to the core.

The only people who make this LPN feel like a trained chimp are condescending RN's. And of those, I've met very few. But my, are they memorable!

Doctors have been unfailingly courteous and helpful.

YMMV.

Specializes in Rodeo Nursing (Neuro).
I've never understood why many nurses are intimidated by the docs. I am merely a nursing student, but the physicians do not intimidate me at all. I just go about my business, and if a physician is rude to me (it has happened on a few occasions), I just smile and walk away. I don't stress about it.. its not worth my energy to stress over another arrogant physician. Perhaps it is different as a staff nurse because it seems they are even frieghtened to ask the doc a question while they are rounding and they act like they are walking on egg shells.

For example: in clinicals the other day I had asked my nurse about when my patient was going to be discharged because it seemed pointless she was even in the hospital anymore, and the nurse said "well the doctor has not written a discharge order yet". So I asked, "well have you asked the resident or the attending what her discharge plans are?", and she said "no... I don't want to ask him.. he will soon or later round on her and write her an order." So I took it upon myself to ask and the doc was kind and polite and said "thanks for the update... I will order a PT consult and as long as she is able to ambulate without assistance, we can discharge her." Sure enough, she was discharged that afternoon.

I always thought about pursuing med school someday... but I discovered that med students and residents main priority is to assure their lips are firmly pressed on the attendings behind all day long. I am not sure if I could manage 7 years of school and training kissing the attendings butt to help boost their ego even more!

I'm sure it varies by facility and by nurse, but as a first year nurse I hated to page a doc because even the polite ones can leave you feeling like an idiot. I know I'm not the only one who found being the nurse a lot more stressful than being the nursing student. The level of responsibility is just a whole lot higher.

I still think twice about paging, mostly because I'm on nights and I've seen how tired the docs are. Plus, I'm more comfortable making some decisions on my own for the doc to sign off in the am. Getting to know the docs lets you know better what they want to be called about.

I still get a little ticked when I think about a time when an aide got my (fairly inexperienced) charge nurse to page a doc over a question I already knew the answer to--it isn't like he had nothing else to do but answer stupid questions.

Finally, I don't know how it is in your state, but in mine a student isn't allowed to take verbal orders from a doctor. Whatever the law, it would be good manners and good sense to make sure the licensed nurse is kept in the loop.

Oh, and unless it's emergent, we never interrupt the docs during rounds.

Specializes in Community Health, Med-Surg, Home Health.
I've never understood why many nurses are intimidated by the docs. I am merely a nursing student, but the physicians do not intimidate me at all. I just go about my business, and if a physician is rude to me (it has happened on a few occasions), I just smile and walk away. I don't stress about it.. its not worth my energy to stress over another arrogant physician. Perhaps it is different as a staff nurse because it seems they are even frieghtened to ask the doc a question while they are rounding and they act like they are walking on egg shells.

For example: in clinicals the other day I had asked my nurse about when my patient was going to be discharged because it seemed pointless she was even in the hospital anymore, and the nurse said "well the doctor has not written a discharge order yet". So I asked, "well have you asked the resident or the attending what her discharge plans are?", and she said "no... I don't want to ask him.. he will soon or later round on her and write her an order." So I took it upon myself to ask and the doc was kind and polite and said "thanks for the update... I will order a PT consult and as long as she is able to ambulate without assistance, we can discharge her." Sure enough, she was discharged that afternoon.

I always thought about pursuing med school someday... but I discovered that med students and residents main priority is to assure their lips are firmly pressed on the attendings behind all day long. I am not sure if I could manage 7 years of school and training kissing the attendings butt to help boost their ego even more!

I think there is a difference between interacting with them briefly during clinical and dealing with their rudeness day after day. Not bashing you at all; I applaud you for the way you dealt with it. But, daily, it begins to wear and tear on you, believe me.

Specializes in RN, BSN, CHDN.

Update on the well trained monkey thread well the other day I was looking after a woman who was ebd stage COPD and had other complaints, very caring family, docs told her that nothing more they could do medically. So hospice comes to the fore front myself and one of the charge nurses spent time with the family discussing options. So fast forward to the next day I am discussing this pt and her family with the other charge nurse and the social worker/case manager the need for the family to meet with Hospice-when I am told I am overstepping the mark and that it is not up to me to discuss hospice with a family but the doctor has to be the one to bring this up in the conversation with the family. I honestly thought they were joking the Doctor who couldnt care less where she went as long as she was discharged. I was told I should be careful!!! So after I had a verbal order from the doctor to consult hospice, it was ok. Hospice came in and told me that they had never heard of such a thing as nurses not discussing hospice care with the family before.

Later on I asked the charge nurse to outline the role of the nurse on this unit and was told 'To carry out the orders of the Doctors"

Specializes in Community Health, Med-Surg, Home Health.

I am thoroughly convinced. Nurses have no autonomy unless we have a cooperative physician. Otherwise, unfortunately, we are, in fact, trained monkeys, from my observation. Shameful...

Specializes in L & D; Postpartum.

In 30 years I have never, repeat never, been intimidated by a doctor. I just don't allow it. And I've had some pretty frank discussions with one or two. By and large, they don't do that if they know they can't get away with it.

However, I am currently feeling like our administration is trying to make trained monkeys out of us. We have less and less autonomy these days: don't even try to think for yourself because there's a script for each and every situation, there's a form to fill out, there are competencies out the wazoo for stuff you do every day, tests on (restraints comes to mind) when we NEVER, EVER use them in our (OB) unit. Then we get them back with answers marked wrong. I'd never even heard of a lap buddy (sounded like something sleazy to me!) before I got that question.

I'm really aware that my attitude is declining. I love my work; love (most of) my patients and work with a great bunch of nurses. The administration, JCAHO, and all that: what are they really doing to help improve patient care? Not much the way I see it. Quite the opposite. Making it harder and harder to have more time at the bedside, nothing is easier, quicker or safer IMHO.

I think they'd be very happy if we'd all just step into line and toe it. Even our nurse managers are scripting to us. Like "take a deep breath" Okay, good advice but it ain't gonna get me more help. I'm getting really sick of it. And too close to retiring to do much more than tough it out.

Specializes in Case Management, Home Health, UM.
Later on I asked the charge nurse to outline the role of the nurse on this unit and was told 'To carry out the orders of the Doctors"

To be ordered to blindly "carry out the orders of the doctors" is a lawsuit waiting to happen, and I would get the heck out of Dodge!

Specializes in Travel Nursing, ICU, tele, etc.

Have you ever heard Dr Laura Gasparis Vonfrolio talk about this in any of her courses? She is a huge advocate for nurses nationwide. In her CCRN course she talks about how she studied the "socialization" of nurses vs doctors and how it starts right away in nursing schools and in med school. She visited 2 nursing and med schools in the east, 2 each in the midwest and 2 each in the west. She says right from the start in med school the students are called "Doctor", they are told how much they will be respected in society etc etc etc...by the time the first week of classes are over, they can't get out the door because their heads are so big. (She does a lot of her teaching 'tongue in cheek'!)

Then in stark contrast she describes the first day of nursing school. There is someone scowling at you and says look around you only half of you will be left by the end of this school year...who is it going to be!!! Nurses, in her words, are "scared of their own shadow" and it starts right away in school. We are taught and expected to be that way.

Like I said, she uses a lot of humor to make her point and over exaggeration, but it really isn't that far off.

Anyway, the end of this story is that this was to be the subject of her Doctoral dissertation for nursing and it ultimately got rejected from the nursing committee!! Unreal!!!!

Have you ever heard Dr Laura Gasparis Vonfrolio talk about this in any of her courses? She is a huge advocate for nurses nationwide. In her CCRN course she talks about how she studied the "socialization" of nurses vs doctors and how it starts right away in nursing schools and in med school. She visited 2 nursing and med schools in the east, 2 each in the midwest and 2 each in the west. She says right from the start in med school the students are called "Doctor", they are told how much they will be respected in society etc etc etc...by the time the first week of classes are over, they can't get out the door because their heads are so big. (She does a lot of her teaching 'tongue in cheek'!)

Then in stark contrast she describes the first day of nursing school. There is someone scowling at you and says look around you only half of you will be left by the end of this school year...who is it going to be!!! Nurses, in her words, are "scared of their own shadow" and it starts right away in school. We are taught and expected to be that way.

Like I said, she uses a lot of humor to make her point and over exaggeration, but it really isn't that far off.

Anyway, the end of this story is that this was to be the subject of her Doctoral dissertation for nursing and it ultimately got rejected from the nursing committee!! Unreal!!!!

Why am I not surprised?

Lindarn, RN, BSN, CCRN

Spokane, Washington

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