As nurses are we just Trained well behavedMonkeys

[madwife2002]

Ok I know the title to this thread could be concieved as a little argumentative but I hope it opens a good discussion.

Where I work the doctors are treated like demi gods, without exception. They can make mistakes, be rude to the patient, treat the nursing staff like something the cat dragged in and they never seem to get into any trouble. They go through the hospital complaining about nursing staff.

As a nurse who has been trained to question practice, apply evidence based practice and believe nursing is a seperate profession to doctors, I find myself in a position of being a handmaiden to the Doctors, now I know my hospital cannot be unique-but Doctors write orders and Nurses carry out the orders period. If orders aren't clear because why should the doctors speak to the nurses, then nurses spend hours of each day searching out doctors to clarify order. then spend 10mins on the phone being spoken to like a child in the nastiest tone possible-the kind of tone you would reserve for a mass murderer.

I have spoken to the powers that be and I have firmly told offending doctors that I dont understand why I should be spoken to in such a manner to no avail After all doctors are demi-gods and nurses are trained monkeys carrying out orders- meaning Doctors bring in the 'business' nurses seem to be dispensable. In my hospital nurses are writen up for everything, if I have a problem with a different department then I told write them up- What happened to dealing with said problem and try tyo ensure it doesnt happen again through education and training. If we cant support each other as nurses then we have no chance against the establishment.

[Beggar♂]

However, Maria Sanchez, a nurse at Jackson Memorial, calls disruptive doctors "a pretty common problem." She says the Jackson staff, protected by the union, doesn't hesitate to complain about doctors who misbehave.

Yet another reason that I will work only in a union facility. I'd be pretty concerned about standing up to an abusive doc in a non-union facility, especially in an area where good nursing jobs are scarce. The truth is, the docs (especially the surgeons) ARE revenue producers and they will always be coddled by management to some degree.

Only by sticking together do the nurses have influence. Individual nurses are powerless.

[brissie]

I usually let them have their egotistical little ways just to avoid the hassle of getting my BP up unless it has to do with direct patient care. I will advocate for my patients till the cows come home regardless of how much of a jerk the MD is.

[GilaRRT]

Sounds like you need to jump ship and start treading water. That is better than putting up with a poor working environment. As far as docs writing up nurses, just try to abuse me, I could care less what you write on your paper.

Training versus education, this is a pretty simple concept.

Training is simply, "monkey see monkey do." You can take anybody off the street and push them through an ACLS course and train them to be an ALS provider. Pretty simple to say, "If you see that squiggly line on the monitor draw up the drug in the blue vial and push it."

Education involves providing a person comprehensive foundational knowledge, then having that person provide assessments and interventions based on this knowledge. For example: You gain a solid foundation of knowledge in the arts, medicine, nursing, and science from your initial nursing education. Then, you take an ACLS class and you realize what the "squiggly" lines mean and understand the physiological mechanisms behind the patient presentation. You also understand the physiology of the Vasopressin you push and the implications and physiological reactions once the medication enters your patient.

[nursemike, ASN, RN]

Ooh-ooh, ah-ah-ah, eee-e-e-eh!

Actually, the docs where I work are pretty decent. I work nights on neuro/neurosurg in a teaching hospital, so I deal more with residents than attendings. Less ego, more just trying to keep the pt alive until morning.

Although some of my favorite doctors (as people) are neurologists, I'm finding myself more comfortable dealing with the neurosurgeons. I'm reminded of a story my Dad told about a tv show about a child prodigy who thought his father might be a little jealous of him, since he "works with his hands." The father was a neurosurgeon. It does seem, though, at least with the current batch, that the surgeons are a little more pragmatic and "hands on." None of the residents of either service are rude, though. Haven't noticed any rudeness from residents for off-service patients, either--it's just hard to get one to admit he's ever heard of that patient. If you're an ortho or trauma or medicine patient, try not to get placed on a neuro floor, or they'll forget about you.

[TrudyRN]

Sounds like you need a new place to work. I don't think I've ever had to deal with much, if any, of this type of stuff. Our docs have almost, without exception, be open to Nursing, pleasant if somewhat sometimes brusque (when called at night), and generally pretty decent.

You are swimming upstream. Find a new stream?

[P_RN, ADN, RN]

oh i've seen my share of jack-### doctors out in the general population of the hospital. but we were a specialty (ortho) unit and really unless we got overflow (which we did at times) we had our docs pretty well trained eeee-aaaa--ork's themselves.

when you only work with the same 15-20 faces year in and year out they kind of grow on you.....mossy, fungal like but good fungus. now july 1 was a different rodeo all together. every teaching hospital nurse knows what july 1 brings.......new [color=lightblue]baby doctors.....awwwwww.

first thing we did was tell them our names, if they called us by our first, we called them by their first. we had a big white board with their names, their beeper numbers and the notation residents answer your beepers please. attending will be called if no response. beeee-you-ti-ful. we invited them to our staff covered dishes and asked them to bring something even if just bread or a pepsi. all in all a pretty good zoology project.

but back to the subject at hand.....some places are just like madwife said and that's american medicine for you......little tin g-ds on their little tin tucchuses.

[Creamsoda, ASN, RN]

Try switching specialties like going into ICU. I found exactly what you were talking about when I worked on the floor. I felt like a slave, wasnt allwoed to use my brain...the doctors just wrote orders and we implemented them. When I switced to ICU what a difference it was. We are expected to use our brains, question orders (often its the residents orders we question). Its the other end of the spectrum...if an order is funny and we dont question it, they will wonder why when it is finally caught. The doctors respect us, and we respect the doctors. We dont call them Dr. so and so. We call eachother on a first name basis. Granted there are days were the docs have their days, but I have never seen them throw a tantrum or yell or belittle us. Sometimes they get upset if an order hasnt been carried out fast enough (often its because we havent seen the order or didnt know it was there) but the whole unit works as a team and I am much happier because of it.

[madwife2002, BSN, RN]

Thank you all so much for your replies. All your comments have been useful and have given me some food for thought. I am so pleased to read that things are different in other people's place of work.

all the nursing staff I work with work extreemly hard and I have an enormous amount of respect for them I get very concerned that we are treated so badly-I know in Az it is a right to work state, so that makes us hesitate when confronting the doc's. I personally have spoken individually to doctors in an effort to change the way they speak to us.

One doctor told me not to take it personally as he speaks to all the nurses like he speaks to me!!!!!!! Ok thats acceptable then is it.

ONe doctor told me when I couldnt quite get what he was saying on the phone that We speak American English in this country so you better get used to it. Sorry I only speak English lol.

[Preemienurse23]

I bet you're expected to give up your seat for them too!

My very first clinical, I went to give up my seat to a Dr. and my preceptor stopped me, and told me that I didn't have to give it up because I had just as much right to sit there and chart on my pt, as he did. I was so shocked, but I kept that with me. My previous hospital, our back table, most of our units were round, was where the Docs would chart, and we were expected to give them the seat. I don't know how many times the NURSES got on to me, the doctors never seemed to care!

[Selke]

Ever hear of a Code Pink?

http://www.redorbit.com/news/health/178764/nurses_and_staff_stand_up_against_uncivil_doctors/index.html

Occasionally, if the doc's behavior was truly awful, nurses took it upon themselves to deal with it. Anne Streeter of Baptist Health South Florida recalls that at least as far back as the 1980s, nurses at Baptist had an informal Code Pink. If a doctor got out of hand with a nurse, a call over the loudspeakers caused nurses to rush to the colleague's assistance, surrounding the doctor until he calmed down.

This is a great idea, but it seems it would only work in an institution where you did not have a predominate regressive nursing culture like the OP is working in. She might not find enough other RNs and staff to show up for a Code Pink. They're all intimidated well behaved monkeys.

Madwife 2002, can you find a job in another hospital where you are treated as a degreed professional and not a trained obedient monkey?

[gonzo1, ASN, RN]

In the ER where I work the nurses and doctors work together very well. I feel respected 99.3 percent of the time. My experience with ER doctors all over is that they appreciate and work well in teamwork with the nurse.

I love the docs I work with.

I hope sometime you will be able to experience this too.

[StacieRN, RN]

I agree with Cher1983. I found that attitude a lot more often when I worked on the floor. In Critical Care the doctors rely on you to keep their patients alive and well. That tends to encourage them to want to stay on your good side by being nice.

Plus, if you mentioned a prob and they brush it off - big mistake on their part. We are at the bedside and see changes first. Almost without fail I find doctors will listen to anything an ICU nurse says - they've learned better.

Have had only two exceptions. The first was a surg who was a jerk to everyone - end result - the units stopped accepting his patients (no one wants to assume liability for a patient whose doc will not listen. esp not the managers - too much $$ on the line)

The second doctor wouldn't believe me about something I said. So I had him come back to the hospital and proved to him I knew what I was talking about. He ended up having to eat his words and was thereafter much more polite.

Consider changing to critical care. Trust me, If you can take care of the patient load on the floor - you can do critical care. I was worried about switching but turned out to be the best decision I ever made.