We were discussing the Disneryland measles outbreak at work, and I was appalled to find some of my co-workers refuse to vaccinate their kids. They (grudgingly) receive the vaccines they need to remain employed, but doubt their safety/necessity for their kids.
I must say, I am absolutley stunned. How can one be a nurse and deny science?
As a nurse, you should darn well know what the scientific method entails and what phrases such as "evidence based" and "peer reviewed" mean.
I have to say, I have lost most of my respect for the nurses and mistrust their judgement; after all, if they deny science, on what premise are they basing their practices?
If I have the time and inclination, I might tackle this one later.
You may be shocked to learn (then again, perhaps not) that I used to be a part of that far fringe of anti-medical establishment, crunchy granola earth-mother hippie scene before I became a nurse. I still have a lot of those beliefs (such as breastfeeding until middle school and cosleeping until college - joking!). And I still have some remembrance of the thought process of the time. I can relate to "those people" even if I no longer agree with or believe most of what they believe.
Like I said, if I have more time I might tackle your question.
Not surprised that you were crunchy, I explored a lot of that stuff myself in my exuberant youth, when I realized the 'authorities' weren't any more with it than I probably was. Trying ideas 'on' and wearing them around for a while to see what comes of it is a lot like the scientific process, maybe it's no different at all in principle.
I would love to hear your analysis, and your second post was very validating, thank you. You strike me as a free thinking type and honest in your reasoning, so I'm looking forward to what you have to say :) I can't think through this giant pile all by muhself lol. It's more important to have your ideas criticized honestly than just ate up and swallowed, because I KNOW I'm not hitting all the high points, we are all biased and it ought to be pointed out and considered respectfully :)
Being a nurse and listening to the politics makes me wonder why all nurses feel that you should vaccinate??? Please read this article. Our government is run by pharmaceutical companies... and it is all about money. As nurses there is so much horizontal violence and bashing that makes me wonder why some of you even had gotten into nursing. Congress Moves to Step Up Vaccine Enforcement | The Alliance for Natural Health USA
I clicked on this article and it affirms Godwin's Law once again:
This is not Nazi Germany or Stalinist Russia. Parents deserve answers to what are reasonable questions about vaccine safety - See more at:
. . . which indicates this article intends to snatch you up with hyperbole, and once your amygdala and adrenal glands are pumping away, convince you that you are actually reading fresh information. It doesn't acknowledge and author so you can check their credentials, either. I know anyone can write an opinion piece, but I read opinion pieces for entertainment and to provoke thinking, not to be tube fed. No offense meant to you personally, Earline Angell . . . if I didn't know this article didn't meet basic criteria for being factual, it would scare me to death. It's just . . . crappy, and probably evil, to pump misinformation out there so ya can jump on the bandwagon and sell your magazine. Ah, the downside of pure capitalism . . .
The point of this kind of opinion piece IS to scare you. It's manipulative, what scares you more than what dark secrets you put in your child's body with a needle? And without all these disease marching through our children's lives anymore, we've lost touch with what to be afraid OF.
I think some of on you on this thread have denied it. You balk at the thought of Big Pharma. I'm pretty sure some have said it's just a conspiracy. There is also fraud with GSK. The whistle blower is in the bought movie and discusses it.
So you wonder why people don't have always faith in the medical system or vaccines? If scientists are being asked to cherry pick data and only show the good, it could be happening a lot more than we realize. This isn't conspiracy. It's reality.
We see here that even the scientists are appalled. They are the ones beginning to blow the whistle and stand up against the wrongdoing going on.
Also, in the bought movie, it is mentioned that the Gardasil vaccine was not properly studied using a placebo. One group was given the vaccine, while the other group was given aluminum. How is that a proper study? There was no control group.
Scroll to the clinical trials section. It does say 7 trials were done and 5 out of the 7 used aluminum. I guess 7 trials is enough? Why use aluminum in 5 out of 7? I don't think so. I don't think they gave it enough time, and many girls are paying the price.
I think the 'psychological issue' here is about personal expectations (which all of us have), and the biases that result from those unexamined expectations.
If you (the generic you) expect Merck and Pfizer to ship out a product that is 100% effective, without side effects or rare catastrophic complications, you'll be outraged. Not just disappointed, but up in arms. 100% is a fantasy, it's not an actual goal. The CDC required Merck's mumps part of the MMR to reach 95% efficacy, and Merck's bottom line guys manipulated and lied about their actual efficacy results. I didn't see in the article if the actual efficacy was 94% or 89% or what. They would have had to do an AMAZING amount of cooking the books whatever.
The 'psychological issue' I'm seeing is that if (for instance) Merck cooked their books, they are 100% evil thieves. I'm not happy about it at all -- but this crap happens in every corporation, institution, hospital, clinic, research lab. They are run by human beings, and the bottom line is money. THIS does not indicate an overwhelming TRUTH that paints all Merck products black. I'm grateful for whistleblowers and people willing to risk their neck and careers for the public good. Merck MUST do a better job. Period.
It's the layperson public who can't be judged too harshly for exaggerating their expectations. Those of us in healthcare don't have an excuse. We should know better than to make the same cognitive errors our fellow laypersons make.
A bad apple can destroy the whole barrel. That's why Merck et al have whistleblower policies. These companies are constantly being sued by the federal government for SOMETHING, but this does not mean their products are faulty across the board. I know money talks, but considering that in spite of the book cooking and corporate greed we do have a society essentially free of contagious diseases that used to plague our precious children. They are doing something right, they have to be.
Part of being a healthcare professional is our duty to educate our layperson fellows. You and I are more accountable, as nurses, than Mr Bachelor's Degree in Kinesthesiology and his 'provocative questions'. He is FLEECING you. He is exploiting your fear! Money talks to him just as loudly :)
Most of us end up here, having to question what we've accepted as true. It's a life long process. So far, a great majority of what we get from our institutions like the CDC is good -- look around you, and then take a walk through Tijuana, Mexico or maybe sub-Saharan Africa. We are beyond privileged. We don't get to choose where we are born. It's not perfect -- but because it's not perfect doesn't mean it is evil or a conspiracy hiding something huge. We'd see it. Someone would have blown the whistle on THAT a long time ago.
I don't need to brush up on reading the latest pro-vaccination rhetoric or research NOR do I need to read opinion pieces or massively edited 'documentaries' to argue my point. I don't need any of that at all. What I use is logic, plain and simple common sense type logic. Basic cause and effect. The veracity of a statement can be determined quickly by weeding out articles that start out saying "We don't live in Nazi Germany, but in America . . . " How many Pub Med articles start out with that kind of rhetoric? I know immediately I'm in for a ride. We have to be smarter than this, because guess who is REALLY out for your buck? The people who give you NOTHING, like Mr Kinesthesiology. At least Merck et al stopped yearly pandemics of contagious disease. That's something.
Also, in the bought movie, it is mentioned that the Gardasil vaccine was not properly studied using a placebo. One group was given the vaccine, while the other group was given aluminum. How is that a proper study? There was no control group.
Scroll to the clinical trials section. It does say 7 trials were done and 5 out of the 7 used aluminum. I guess 7 trials is enough? Why use aluminum in 5 out of 7? I don't think so. I don't think they gave it enough time, and many girls are paying the price.
Gardasil is one of the best studied vaccines in history. There are numerous international studies done both by pharmaceutical companies and by independent authors and review boards.
"The findings of this review are consistent with the expertassessment of a number of peak advisory bodies [13, 96,133]. For example, the Global Advisory Committee of theWorld Health Organisation found in 2007 and 2008 thatcurrent evidence on the safety of HPV vaccines was reassuring[132, 134]. Independent systematic reviews of HPVvaccine safety have also drawn this conclusion [18]. Inaddition, a recent report by the Institute of Medicine (IOM)summarising evidence for causal relationships betweencertain adverse events and eight different vaccines,including HPV vaccines, identified acceptable levels ofevidence to support a causal relationship between HPVvaccination and anaphylaxis and reported acceptance of acausal relationship with any vaccine injection and syncope[105]. Consistent with the findings of this review, the IOMstated that neither the mechanistic or epidemiologic evidencesupported an association of HPV vaccination withother outcomes, such as various new onset chronicdiseases."
Macartney, K. K., Chiu, C., Georgousakis, M., & Brotherton, J. M. (2013). Safety of human papillomavirus vaccines: a review. Drug safety, 36(6), 393-412.
I find the vaccine issue to be very personal for everyone. Those who question or don't want them are made to feel like they don't have control about what goes into their bodies. Many feel like the vaccine schedule is just too much on a young child's immune system. That's what was presented in the Bought documentary. I don't believe anyone was antivax. They just questioned it, and asked that it be made safer. Much of what we vaccinate against is prevalent in third world countries where sanitation and access to healthy foods are not available. I used to believe in vaccines. Over the past several years, I've learned a lot. As I age, I want to be as healthy as I can. Food and nutrition have a huge impact on every cell in the body...more than many give credit to. I'm not worried about the flu or measles, and I won't allow the media to scare me into getting vaccinated. I will move out of this country before I ever let a government force that on me.
I get that the vaccinated fear those who are not vaccinated, but think about it. I believe it to be like a placebo effect. There are probably many walking around, assuming since they were vaccinated as children, they are safe. It's a false sense of security. No one really knows if they are protected unless a titer is drawn.
The flu vaccine is the same. I think it gives nurses a false sense of security thinking they can't spread it. If germs like viruses live on surfaces, that vaccinated nurse could just as well pick it up and transfer it to the patient. Not only that, it's not even that effective....studies have shown.Alliance for Human Research Protection - Cochrane Collaboration: Flu Vaccines of No Benefit It's actually sickening each year to listen to the big push for everyone to get their flu shot. Just a decade ago, it was recommended for ages 65+. Then they decided to broaden the market and tell the entire population to get vaccinated against the flu. It's crazy! I'm completely healthy and have an immune system that works top notch. I'm not going to chance that by accepting a flu vac. I can envision if I did...I would end up with some autoimmune issue. No thanks. I have only had influenza maybe two times in my almost 4 decades on this earth.
Many feel like the vaccine schedule is just too much on a young child's immune system. That's what was presented in the Bought documentary.
FACTS, not FEELINGS should be what drives behavior and public health policy.
Children are Exposed to Fewer Antigens in Vaccines Today Than in the Past
Parents who are worried about the increasing number of recommended vaccines may take comfort in knowing that children are exposed to fewer antigens (proteins and polysaccharides) in vaccines today than in the past. Table 2 summarizes the number of proteins and polysaccharides contained in routinely recommended vaccines administered over the past 100 years. Although we now give children more vaccines, the actual number of antigens they receive has declined. Whereas previously 1 vaccine, smallpox, contained about 200 proteins, now the 11 routinely recommended vaccines contain fewer than 130 pro-teins in total. Two factors account for this decline: first, the worldwide eradication of smallpox obviated the need for that vaccine, and second, advances in protein chemistry have resulted in vaccines containing fewer antigens (eg, replacement of whole-cell with acellular pertussis vaccine).
Children Respond to Multiple Vaccines Given at the Same Time in a Manner Similar to Individual Vaccines
If vaccines overwhelmed or weakened the immune system, then one would expect lesser immune responses when vaccines are given at the same time as compared with when they are given at different times.41,42 However, the following vaccines induce similar humoral immune responses when given at the same or different times: 1) MMR and varicella,43,44 2) MMR, diphtheria-tetorifice-pertussis (DTP), and OPV,45 3) hepatitis B, diphtheria-tetorifice, and OPV,46 4) influenza and pneumococcus,47 5) MMR, DTP-Hib, and varicella,48 6) MMR and Hib,49 and 7) DTP and Hib.49
Nurse Leigh
1,149 Posts
That, or a guarantee that your next Tdap vaccine wouldn't hurt so badly? Those suckers smart!