Why do nurses constantly say they don't hire ASN?

Nursing Students ADN/BSN

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OK this is funny because every Magnet hospital I go to someone who doesn't work in HR or is NOT a hiring Manager just has to say they don't hire Associate Degree nurses. I have been asked to be hired at some other Magnet hospitals. Reasons like this, bullying, bad staffing, etc. have made me just complete my assignment and go to the next one. I started liking working where I am now, at a Magnet hospital, probably one of the ones who started the trend. It came up as a discussion because my contract was extended after only two weeks of starting. Then a couple of nurses who were overhearing the conversation said I would never get hired due to my lame degree status. Le sigh... :no: Some of the ASNs themselves. Just for the record. I am a 8 year experienced ASN with great references so it isn't like I am new at this kind of thing.

It just doesn't happen there, I have seen nurses do it on here to others. It is harder to get in I guess, but when you have experience it isn't so hard. At least for me. I am not sure about a New Grads, but hey what do I know. Maybe in the universe there is a New Grad ASN out there who did get hired with persistence at these Magnet hospitals! Especially, if they are enrolled or attending a BSN program.

Listen unless if you are not a hiring person don't say this. Why? I just don't understand it. Does it make you feel better? If someone has an Associate's Degree gets hire in a Magnet hospital, is willing to upgrade their education status, what they heck is it to you?

Just a rant I guess. Hopefully, this will be the last stop so I can continue on with my education. But, I won't ever be like, "They don't hire your kind here." :sarcastic:

Specializes in Peds/outpatient FP,derm,allergy/private duty.

Hospitals will always act in the best interest of profit. When the ANA launched the BSN in 10 movement they picked four states they thought would be a pushover - Oregon, Montana, Maine and North Dakota. Things did not go as planned. In fact, the first three actually passed laws preventing boards of nursing from independently changing the requirements to become an RN should they continue their attempts to do that.

It was the state hospital associations who blocked BSN-required. For many decades around 60% of FT employed RNs held associate degrees and we never heard either hospitals or the public clamoring to get rid of these nurses who cause their mortality rates to increase.

I recently read an analysis of the factors contributing to the reality that the only state to pass a BSN-required law repealed it. It identified a number of factors - but I'm not sure the pro-BSN ETP lobby read it even though it was published in an ANA journal. Instead, they did the opposite, the most damaging being Linda Aiken's decision to recycle data from a previous study the same year the North Dakota law was repealed (coincidence?) Instead of creating cohesiveness and unity they created what I would argue is the the deepest fracture in nursing cohesiveness by insulting millions of ADN and diploma nurses, a process that continues to this day.

Specializes in burn ICU, SICU, ER, Trauma Rapid Response.

Any potential data from studies will also have to fight an up hill battel of RN personal experience. For example all 5 of the full time RRT RNs in my hospital are either ADN RNs or started as ADNs and then did RN to BSN programs. Hard to convince any of us that we contribute to increased patient mortality when we have our own very good data showing we (the RRT team) have significatly reduced out of ICU or ER codes, ICU bounce backs and have improved outcomes in our hospital.

Every night we get dozens of calls from BSN and MSN prepared nurses asking for all sort of advice from how to administer IGG to weather or not they should hold a particular medication and a thousand other things.

Specializes in Neuro ICU and Med Surg.
Any potential data from studies will also have to fight an up hill battel of RN personal experience. For example all 5 of the full time RRT RNs in my hospital are either ADN RNs or started as ADNs and then did RN to BSN programs. Hard to convince any of us that we contribute to increased patient mortality when we have our own very good data showing we (the RRT team) have significatly reduced out of ICU or ER codes, ICU bounce backs and have improved outcomes in our hospital.

Every night we get dozens of calls from BSN and MSN prepared nurses asking for all sort of advice from how to administer IGG to weather or not they should hold a particular medication and a thousand other things.

Exactly PMFB-RN. Our RRT nurses are all ADN's! 3/4 of us are in BSN programs. The new one we hired is an ADN as well. I get all kinds of calls from all nurses regarding BP management, questions about condition, medication questions,etc. We have greatly improved outcomes in our patients.

Specializes in Cardiac.
This conversation is about much more than just "My degree is better than yours." Certain people have a vested interest in promoting as an established fact the notion that nursing care provided by BSN prepared nurses results in better patient outcomes versus nursing care provided by ADN prepared nurses. It is important that this approach is challenged.

I have a BSN and I also work at a Magnet hospital, I think this topic has been beaten to death, it just promotes so much animosity from one nurse to another. This is just my opinion, I for one think if they are going to make it mandatory then make it mandatory or stop talking about it, it's getting to the point where I can sense the hatred, even at work, I'm just sick of it already!

Specializes in burn ICU, SICU, ER, Trauma Rapid Response.
I have a BSN and I also work at a Magnet hospital, I think this topic has been beaten to death, it just promotes so much animosity from one nurse to another. This is just my opinion, I for one think if they are going to make it mandatory then make it mandatory or stop talking about it, it's getting to the point where I can sense the hatred, even at work, I'm just sick of it already!

*** I see your point. However we should remember that one group of nurses is advocating to get rid of another by insisting that their practice isn't safe and that they contribute to increased deaths of patients. Defensive behavior is only to be expected.

The debate didn't start when ADN prepared RNs started making noise about getting rid of BSN prepared RNs.

With the Hospitals requiring the BSN degree, who will train these Nurses once they are out of school. Nurses with BSN degrees later go on into Management and do not keep up the hands on training at times. I have a ADN and am an older nurse. I plan to retire in 5 years so for me the cost to obtain a BSN will not outweigh what I can do with the advanced degree. I do not want to manage as I have done that already with a ADN degree. BSN degrees lean more on theory of nursing and less on the actual nursing process. All the schooling I have had did nothing to help me with my nursing career. I have a lot of Emergency training as I started out as a EMT, Level 1 Hazardous Material Responder, Level 2 Firefighter so once I became a nurse I have had no problems with being hired as a nurse.

Who were the BSN's in the study? Who were the ADN's in the study? If the BSN's are like many of you here, that started as a LPN and moved up to ASN then BSN and have many years experience, then yeah I see how they would have better patient outcomes if compared to straight out of school ADN's.

I would like to see a study of RN VS BSN with the same numbers of years patient care. Do a study of all first year zero prior patient care experience study.

With any study, you can pretty much get the outcome you want by manipulating the subjects.

Specializes in Adult Internal Medicine.
Who were the BSN's in the study? Who were the ADN's in the study? If the BSN's are like many of you here, that started as a LPN and moved up to ASN then BSN and have many years experience, then yeah I see how they would have better patient outcomes if compared to straight out of school ADN's.

I would like to see a study of RN VS BSN with the same numbers of years patient care. Do a study of all first year zero prior patient care experience study.

With any study, you can pretty much get the outcome you want by manipulating the subjects.

I can't remember off the top of my head but one of the four major studies controlled for years experience, not sure about the others.

As far as a zero-experience study, it would be of academic interest, however I think most would argue that the point is moot in aggregate.

Specializes in Peds/outpatient FP,derm,allergy/private duty.
Who were the BSN's in the study? Who were the ADN's in the study? If the BSN's are like many of you here, that started as a LPN and moved up to ASN then BSN and have many years experience, then yeah I see how they would have better patient outcomes if compared to straight out of school ADN's.

I would like to see a study of RN VS BSN with the same numbers of years patient care. Do a study of all first year zero prior patient care experience study.

With any study, you can pretty much get the outcome you want by manipulating the subjects.

The study you most often hear referred to as "landmark" by BSN entry-to-practice advocates is this one:

Educational Levels of Hospital Nurses and Surgical Patient Mortality

I think people get the impression that they studied actual nurses taking care of actual patients. What they did was (after applying further qualifiers to adult hospitals in Pennsylvania) to use vital records (death certificates), and discharge summary abstracts sent to the Pennsylvania HealthCare Cost Containment Council (not mandatory) for their death and failure-to-rescue data and . . .

For their nurse characteristic data they re-used voluntary return by mail questionaires from a completely separate study of RN (no degree category) percentages in a facility and patient outcomes, (the "staffing" study) that had "highest level of education or degree" as one of the questions. They did not ask what career path each nurse had taken or how many years of experience they had most likely because it wasn't pertinent to the original question the survey was designed to help answer.

When we look at the big picture, though - is this argument in any way helping settle this roiling issue? No. If another shortage should emerge people who need RNs will hire whoever is one, however they got there. The only way this can happen is if the states themselves change their laws, and as Esme said in her post regarding New York state, it will not happen.

Here is a link to the article I referred to earlier - all the stuff the author determined caused the effort to fail are at least as bad now as they were then.

A Policy Perspective on the Entry into Practice Issue

This topic has more moving targets than a U-Boat hunting an convoy, and truth be told only those in charge of setting hiring policy know the *real* deal behind BSN preferences or mandates. Everyone else simply takes their marching orders from there and moves onwards.

It is well worth noting that in much of the employment market throughout the United States positions for those with only a high school education or "some" college (associates degree) are dwindling. In many cases even entry/low level office jobs such as clerks, gofers and receptionists require a four year college degree. This has been covered in the media and is gaining widespread attention. Indeed it is one of the reasons for explaining the high unemployment level in some sectors of the population.

More and more employers for a variety of reasons are attaching importance to four year degrees. Do you really need a BofS to answer telephones and greet persons? Probably not, but then again obviously there must be more to things than that else the policy wouldn't have been instituted.

Historically BSN new grads lagged behind diploma and ADN nurses (in that order) on average in clinical skills. However (again on average) after a period of orientation and direct patient care experience BSN met the same performance standards as the rest.

The problem as one sees things, and have said this often is that by and large nursing in the United States has followed the "nurse is a nurse, is a nurse" model. That is you have two types of nurses (RN and LPN/LVN) and within one sector three different educational pathways all leading to the same license. Given that states set scope of practice based upon license and not degree (or diploma), facilities have large leeway in deciding where to employ practical or professional nurses.

The original ANA white paper called for three divisions of nurses: RN (BSN prepared), "technical nurses" (ADN or diploma), and practical (LVN/LPN). BSN nurses were supposed to be in theory at the top of the food chain and would mainly plan and evaluate care (among other administrative and or managerial functions), whilst direct patient care was to be done by technical or practical nurses.

What has happened in the absence of concrete movement by states on mandatory entry standards, hospitals have simply slotted nurses where they feel the need. For the most part BSN and ADN nurses have been working side by side on the units and or floors for years with little difference in wages and or job description. Once you go down that path it is easy to make a turn and eliminate one group (ADN) nurses and keep only the other (BSN). In short hospitals are acting in lieu of the profession doing what needed to be done.

This BSN *debate* has been raging for >50 years. Women and men have entered the profession worked and retired without any movement which shows how long the inactivity has lasted. This is quite sad because had some sort of action been taken this mess and the resulting anguish could possibly have been avoided. You've got students here in NYC and elsewhere busting they *** to get into ADN programs, remain, graduate and pass the boards only to be told "sorry, don't want ya, don't need ya" by large numbers by hospitals. That just isn't fair. Those students played by the rules as laid down to them and now are being thrown curve balls.

Specializes in Adult Internal Medicine.

^^ Excellent post.

Specializes in burn ICU, SICU, ER, Trauma Rapid Response.
In many cases even entry/low level office jobs such as clerks, gofers and receptionists require a four year college degree. This has been covered in the media and is gaining widespread attention.

*** When I was a kid my mom never accepted the "everybody else was doing it" argument whenever I was caught doing something stupid. Her standard response was "if everybody else was jumping off a cliff would do it too?".

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