What's REALLY with the hospitals using Magnet as a cover for wanting BSN only nurses?

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Jules A, MSN

8,864 Posts

Specializes in Family Nurse Practitioner.
Yes! I prefer to have financial and professional parity with physical therapists and pharmacists, not surgical technicians and EMT's.

And this is a perfect example of why I can't appreciate our self-important mindset that seems to place such high esteem on alphabets behind someone's name and not much else. Actually surg techs and EMTs are crucial positions that require actual clinical skills. It is a pity some have such disdain for these important individuals. How helpful would a CNL with their ever so popular Masters degree be when your child is having an emergency? Give me the underpaid, underappreciated surg tech or EMT any day. :rolleyes:

Esme12, ASN, BSN, RN

1 Article; 20,908 Posts

Specializes in Critical Care, ED, Cath lab, CTPAC,Trauma.

Another ADN BSN debate continues :dzed:........I think people get sensitive because one side keeps putting down the other as being lesser, that one is far superior than the other. I believe that NO degree technically makes someone a good nurse or better than someone else.......I have met many over educated idiots :cool: in my time on this earth. I think we should be kinder and more respectful to each other..........:D

While I agree that a BSN is EVENTUALLY going to be the standard of entry.......BUT let us NOT forget that once that NCLEX you are all RN's. This debate has gone on since the begining of time when nursing first began leaving the OTJ bedside instruction. The lateral shoving and pushing at one another is disheartening,:crying2: , Lateral violence is counter productive and destructive.......which makes me yearn for the time we were all the same playing field when entering the profession and were respected for years of experience caring for patients and the knowledge gained there.....we learned from each other.

Now, sadly, we seem to spend a lot of time telling each other how much better we are than the other,:sofahider which IMHO doesn't elevate the profession at all.......I know I will get flammed for this but I say this with all the love of the profession that I have spent 32 years of my life devoted to......each an every member of the team from the housekeeper to the CEO are a part of the team (ok maybe not the CEO...:lol2:) and if one let's go........ we all fall........:smokin:

I also think it's sad and amoral that the ADN programs aren't telling their students that the job market has changed. I think that's dishonsest and cruel. They misrepresent today job market to maintain enrollment for money in their pocket leaving unemployed nurses with mounds of debt.....but that's OK because they got their money right? :devil:

Originally Posted by MrChicagoRN viewpost.gif

How many ADN programs have a formal bridge program to allow the new
RN
to continue with their BSN seamlessly at another instiutution?

Not nearly enough. I must add, I live and work in a major city, for their university system. It will take quite a while for the masses to get onboard.

Have the ADN programs begun telling prospective students that their job prospects are limited compared to a BSN? It would be horrible if they were citing old job placement rates for their programs

not in those words exactly (no one would apply then ;) ). But we do ingrain in them (at the point of application) that they will need to get the BSN, because our state will likely be on the forefront of requiring it.

But I also think just chucking all ADN applications in the :eek: trash, these "Magnet" hospitals are going to miss out on some wonderful nurses that could draw patients to their facilities like a Magnet. Most patients want a nurse who cares and is knowledgeable on how to care for them......not always correlated with the amount of degree's someone has......:twocents::twocents:

So now I will go back and hide behind my couch......we just need to respect each other.:heartbeat

Peace.

And this is a perfect example of why I can't appreciate our self-important mindset that seems to place such high esteem on alphabets behind someone's name and not much else. Actually surg techs and EMTs are crucial positions that require actual clinical skills. It is a pity some have such disdain for these important individuals. How helpful would a CNL with their ever so popular Masters degree be when your child is having an emergency? Give me the underpaid, underappreciated surg tech or EMT any day. :rolleyes:

It's not about lack of appreciation for EMTs, or over-high esteem for alphabets behind our names, but as you point out, they are underpaid and overworked. THAT is the context that EMTs and surg techs and pharmacists and whatnot are being brought in to the conversation: as examples of how a field's educational entrance correlates to how they are treated and paid. Do we want to be underpaid and overworked too?

Specializes in Pediatric Hem/Onc.

I also think it's sad and amoral that the ADN programs aren't telling their students that the job market has changed. I think that's dishonsest and cruel. They misrepresent today job market to maintain enrollment for money in their pocket leaving unemployed nurses with mounds of debt.....but that's OK because they got their money right? :devil: But I also think just chucking all ADN applications in the :eek: trash, these "Magnet" hospitals are going to miss out on some wonderful nurses that could draw patients to their facilities like a Magnet. Most patients want a nurse who cares and is knowledgeable on how to care for them......not always correlated with the amount of degree's someone has......:twocents::twocents:

So now I will go back and hide behind my couch......we just need to respect each other.:heartbeat

Peace.

Every time I read a "why can't I get a job without my BSN??" post I think this. Are ADN programs not telling their students the realities of the job market, or are students not listening? From our first lecture to last, all of my instructors enforced how important it was to continue onto a bridge program and how the market favors BSNs (especially here because most of our hospital systems are Magnet.) I knew going in that getting a job would be hard, but I decided the risk was worth saving thousands on tuition. I have classmates that are lamenting the job market and how they should just get rid of the ADN degree because it's been 6 months and they can't find a job. Meanwhile "most" of us that got UAP positions at hospitals have RN positions now. I've been at my hospital for 2 years and it STILL took me about 4 months after boards to land a FT position. There are a couple of angry BSN PCAs on my floor, wondering why I got a job and they didn't. A degree doesn't guarantee anything.

Honestly, I think a lot of ADNs think they'll be the exception to the rule and will find employment right away. ADNs think they'll stand out for X reasons. BSNs think they're entitled to jobs because they have a BSN. What people seem to be forgetting is that the market sucks for everyone.

PSA: I'm not singling anyone out. These are general statements and obviously don't apply to everyone so please don't get all defensive. I come in peace :D

netglow, ASN, RN

4,412 Posts

And I'll add that SummitAP, has answered my post as I had expected.

Sorry about that, yes, it was a little bit of a "set-up" but I thought a little perspective was needed. My post was to basically show that if you want to set high standards for the RN, set that bar high, or forget it.

Private practice all over the country finds it just as good to hire MAs in place of nurses. We need to focus on the why of that. Will the BSN requirement make MDs want to replace all those MAs with nurses once again in their offices? Will hospitals in my area give wound care back to the RN, in place of PT who is increasingly doing it now?

GM2RN

1,850 Posts

And I'll add that SummitAP, has answered my post as I had expected.

Sorry about that, yes, it was a little bit of a "set-up" but I thought a little perspective was needed. My post was to basically show that if you want to set high standards for the RN, set that bar high, or forget it.

Private practice all over the country finds it just as good to hire MAs in place of nurses. We need to focus on the why of that. Will the BSN requirement make MDs want to replace all those MAs with nurses once again in their offices? Will hospitals in my area give wound care back to the RN, in place of PT who is increasingly doing it now?

Agreed, set the nursing bar high.

As for private practices, and aside from the financial aspect, I would also like to know why MAs are considered good enough in place of nurses. As someone who has never worked in a doctor's office, it does seem that MAs have a role, but I also know from some of the threads here that they often assume some of the scope of practice to some degree of LPNs or RNs, AND call themselves nurses to boot. If a doctor or group wants to hire MAs only, AND they function strictly as MAs and not nurses, that's their business. But DON'T hire MAs and then have them perform the functions of a nurse just because it's cheap labor. I am NOT ok with that.

SummitRN, BSN, RN

2 Articles; 1,567 Posts

Specializes in ICU + Infection Prevention.
And this is a perfect example of why I can't appreciate our self-important mindset that seems to place such high esteem on alphabets behind someone's name and not much else. Actually surg techs and EMTs are crucial positions that require actual clinical skills. It is a pity some have such disdain for these important individuals. How helpful would a CNL with their ever so popular Masters degree be when your child is having an emergency? Give me the underpaid, underappreciated surg tech or EMT any day. :rolleyes:

I'm not going to talk about surg techs cuz I don't know about their situation.

EMS should appear to nursing as a warning about what happens if a field doesn't commit to high educational standards. EMTs barely have more schooling than a CNA. EMTs are a dime a dozen. You don't have to be a highschool graduate and you can get a 2 week class. Why pay them much? Paramedic could have a BS, ASN, or a certificate they earned in 4 months. What happened??? EMS could of been a healthcare profession as it is in other countries where one needs a bachelors, but instead it was sucked down the educational black hole of vocational certification in public safety, a victim of short sightedness, impatience, and economical/political machinations of interested parties (private companies, fire departments only interesed in EMS revenue to prop up fire operations).

EMS is a vocation, not a career. About the only living wage in EMS is for paid public employee union fire fighters who are also paramedics, but most of these don't have EMS as their career. EMS is a stepping stone in their fire fighter career. If you think its hard to get a new grad RN job, try applying for a city FF job: 3000 applicants for ONE job.

OCNRN63, RN

5,978 Posts

Specializes in Oncology; medical specialty website.
I, unfortunately, was unable to do an accelerated BSN program and had to go ADN. I spent 2 years applying to ABSN programs and trying to secure funding and applying to tons of scholarships and meeting with tons of financial aid advisors. I guess it is "my fault" that I am in this situation since I wasn't gifted with the knowledge at 18 years of age when I went to college to pursue the "right" major and that I instead picked the "wrong" one.

I do plan to get my BSN and have NO problem with a BSN program or the "trend" for all nurses to have a BSN or higher. I came here with (what I thought were) legitimate concerns and wanted to get the thoughts and opinions of others. I have received far too many rude and harsh responses. I thought this was a place where one could speak freely but I was clearly mistaken. I will be unsubscribing to this thread.

I really didn't see anyone being rude to you. Getting opinions that differ from your own does not equate rudeness.

neverbethesame

89 Posts

In the US public school teachers need BS/BA in Education and have for a long time. They didn't always though- years ago the brightest high school graduates were recruited to teach the lower grades. Why doesn't nursing make that transition as well? It can be done. Yes, it will hurt for awhile but all of this that's going on now all over the country with what piece of paper you end up with and who can be hired and who can't and at a Magnet or non-Magnet is NOT a good climate for an already brutal profession. Unfortunately, our culture is obsessed with degrees for everything which drives me crazy- full disclosure: I have a BS in Education but a very different philosophy. My fellow teachers could not understand it when I objected to the mandatory classroom poster that said "College preparation begins in Kindergarten." The powers that be in almost every discipline create a false situation and in order to succeed in it we have to play the game- and pay for it to boot!!

Florence would think we were all out of our minds and may very well not let any of us near her patients!!!

ughhmehh

20 Posts

Hi,

I have a BS in Biology from UCSD (University of California at San Diego). I decided to go back to school for nursing in 2009. Unfortunately, Fall of 2010 was the first year that the Cal States and the few UC's that had a nursing program started to block second bachelor applicants from applying. This was due to budget cuts. In short, I could not even apply to a public BSN program in California because I had a previous bachelor's degree.

I applied to several ADN programs, a few private BSN programs (ranging in cost from $50-$60K for tuition only), and one public master's entry program. I did not get into the public masters entry program and did get into all of the private schools I applied to, but decided to go to one of the ADN programs because it was almost tuition free.

Now I can't get a job. And my school did not do a good job of informing us that we should apply a year before we graduated to an RN-BSN program. All of the RN-BSN programs are varying in length, at least 1.5 yrs. Since I have a science degree, I already have the upper division sciences, I am lacking public health, nursing research, pathophysiology, nursing research and a health asessment lab class.

no university will let me take just those classes.

I am all for requiring a BSN. But the hospitals need to understand the economic constraints of the state schools. My ADN program did not have the representative from San Diego State come until our last week of school. The rep from SDSU said that the RN-BSN program was a "complicated process", and the next application date wouldn't be until Fall 2012 for Fall of 2013. Because of budget cuts they only accept one group a year.

This year, the Cal states announced that NOW they are taking second bachelor applicants, but only for BSN programs. That does me no good, as now I am in a weird category (along with hundreds of other California students who were in my situation), where I have my BS, and ADN. I have looked at programs that will take me 2 more years to finish my BSN, and that is once I apply in the fall 2012 to start Fall of 2013.

Our DON at the ADN school said that some schools were looking into adding a third year to the program so that we could get our BSN. I would be fine with going to school for one more year. But then she said that our school would not be doing that, because they dont have the budget. Budgets are being cut in public universities every year, while students who went to private BSN programs are getting jobs, and people who went to public ADN programs cant get a job.

DoGoodThenGo

4,129 Posts

I'm not going to talk about surg techs cuz I don't know about their situation.

EMS should appear to nursing as a warning about what happens if a field doesn't commit to high educational standards. EMTs barely have more schooling than a CNA. EMTs are a dime a dozen. You don't have to be a highschool graduate and you can get a 2 week class. Why pay them much? Paramedic could have a BS, ASN, or a certificate they earned in 4 months. What happened??? EMS could of been a healthcare profession as it is in other countries where one needs a bachelors, but instead it was sucked down the educational black hole of vocational certification in public safety, a victim of short sightedness, impatience, and economical/political machinations of interested parties (private companies, fire departments only interesed in EMS revenue to prop up fire operations).

EMS is a vocation, not a career. About the only living wage in EMS is for paid public employee union fire fighters who are also paramedics, but most of these don't have EMS as their career. EMS is a stepping stone in their fire fighter career. If you think its hard to get a new grad RN job, try applying for a city FF job: 3000 applicants for ONE job.

Just should like to point out that in other countries duties of what we could consider an EMS tech vary by healthcare polices.This plays a huge role in how they are educated, trained and so forth.

For instance in France when responding to an "emergency" EMS workers treat and stablised patients at the scene rather than scoopimg them up and transporting them to hospital as quickly as proper. This difference came to light in particular with the auto crash and subsequent death of Diana, the Princess of Wales. To many Americans the idea so much time was spent treating her on scene instead of quickly moving to hospital either caused or was partly to blame for the lady's death.

DoGoodThenGo

4,129 Posts

It is getting scary out there.

Was looking at the new grad hire website for a major NYC top ranked hospital and not only do they prefer BSN degree holders, but those with a minimum GPA of 3.0. as well.

If this keeps up one is going to need to be Sigma Theta Tau just to get an interview. And guess what? Their hands will *still* go the same places as other nurses and clean the same ****.

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