NY State may require nurses to obtain 4-year degrees - page 43

But some worry that an already severe shortage will become worse. New York is mulling over a requirement that would force all RNs to earn a bachelor's degree in order to keep their RN... Read More

  1. by   tomtom101
    I only began subscribing to allnurses.com a few weeks ago, and see the message regarding NY ( the NYBON for god'sake ) considering RNs be required to obtain a bachelor's degree. This may be an old enough message to be closed for replies.
    But 3 points come to mind -- someone who is the only support for a family ; it seems that I read some time back that NY is short several thousand nurses JUST in the state system ; and ND tried this a few years ago , what is the status of that now that ND is a Compact state ?
    One more -- what planet do those NYBON members live on ?

    Thanks , T .
  2. by   blossomtoes
    well i hope we don't follow suit in the uk. what a load of nonsense! since we started university courses for our nurse training it has not been a good move. students do not know what basic care is! i ake first year students to hopefully give them a taste of general nursing, holistic care, and all the annoying paperwork that goes with it.
    you need people who want to do the job,
  3. by   ZASHAGALKA
    Quote from tomtom101
    This may be an old enough message to be closed for replies. . . what planet do those NYBON members live on ?
    So long as the debate remains civil, I doubt this thread will close. This is a very divisive issue among nurses generally and here at allnurses as well. The mods have decided, for reasons I can understand, to keep this debate contained to just a few threads, this being one of them.

    As far as what the NYBON was thinking, they were thinking the SAME thing that has caused this issue to be so divisive in the first place: to attempt to institute a controversial reform by fiat instead of consensus.

    Until those that want BSN minimum entry decide that reaching across to their peers and justifying why such a move will benefit all nurses and seek a true consensus, this issue will be just as divisive in the next 40 yrs as it has been in the past 40 yrs.

    There are just too many power players at the table that WANT nurses to remain divided for this issue to ever get a reasonable legislative hearing absent a true consensus of all nurses. The only time it was tried, in N. Dakota, that very lack of consensus directly lead to its repeal.

    As result, this issue cannot advance, and due to the stakes involved, it also cannot be dropped. The result: needless animosity. No amount of anecdotal 'ADN nurses have more clinical time', 'ADNs function better' or 'BSN nurses have so much more prep that only they deserve to wear the title RN', 'BSN functions better' can undo this.

    In short, the preconceptions completely deadlock this issue. Absent nurses coming to the table and mutually deciding a new way forward, nothing will change.

    ~faith,
    Timothy.
    Last edit by ZASHAGALKA on Jan 20, '07
  4. by   verysadstudent
    Quote from beth07
    Let me just clarify what a bsn is exactly. It is just like any other 4 year professional degree. The first two years are undergrad classes like english, chem, anatomy & physiology, micro, statistics, algebra, history, electives etc.. The last two years are strictly nursing. You begin with foundations, med surg, health assessment etc. and then move on with classes in psych, pedi, ob, critical care, community health etc.. So the last two years each 16 week semester you have your classroom time and clinical time. My week goes like this (I am about to graduate) Monday: Critical care class all morning. Management class in the afternoon. Tuesday and Wednesday: Critical care clinical in a cardiac ICU all day. Thursday: Community clinical at CPS all day. Friday: a class that teaches on the nurse practice act. It is done by a lawyer and includes ways nurses make a difference in the law making process, ways to avoid malpractice etc. So instead of two years including all your math, english and nursing like with a two year degree, it is divided. It really is a lot more clinical hours and I feel like it's been very worthwhile. Just my two cents.
    I spent a lot of time researching (in my local area) where to go to nursing school and considered both ADN and BSN programs. The programs are so highly competitive here that most counselors recommend you apply everywhere if you have your heart set on nursing. I suspect that there is alot of variety from state to state and program to program.

    First of all let me state that my first year and a half of school (at a CC) was spent doing the same undergraduate courses that this author spoke of Psych, A&P, Chemistry, Micro, English etc. Then I spent the next two years (for a total of 3 1/2 years in school full time) in the ADN ("two year degree") nursing program taking NOTHING but nursing curriculum INCLUDING Professional Development courses and Community Health, Mental Health, OB, Med-Surg, Peds, Theory etc, as well as the EXACT same number of clinical hours being taken by a friend who I originally went through pre-req's with who then transferred to a "four year BSN" program. Trust me, in our ADN program we wrote very detailed papers using current, evidence based, peer reviewed articles in APA format just like my friend at the University was doing, while doing the same 24-32 hours or so per week of clinical experience. Interestingly, she and I both applied to both schools (we were both 4.0 students) and I LUCKILY got accepted into both the ADN program (which I could afford without going in debt for 10 years) and the BSN. I CHOSE the ADN. She did not make it into the ADN program but WAS accepted to the University program. The year we applied my school took only 40 of over 350 highly qualified applicants.

    The long and short of it was she graduated in May, I graduated in June of the same year, both of us having been in school exactly the same amount of time within one month. She had a total of 27 more credit hours than I did (some Theology, a Philosophy course, an additional Sociology, a Statistics class, and two additional Community Health courses) but the EXACT same amount of time spent in clinical hours. She did not work during her time in school, while I unfortunately had to do so. I spent my time gaining patient care experience in an ER as a tech while she learned Statistics. She failed her NCLEX on the first try but happily passed on her second attempt, whereas I and every single one of my fellow ADN students passed first time out. Guess what? our education cost about $47,000 less during those final two years. The bottom line for me was I could not afford the "four year program" which I frankly felt was buying a fancier title for the same outcome.

    Since graduating I have met both ADN and BSN nurses who were great, and those who were not. I must say also that I think it really behooves the instructors at BSN programs to tell their students they are somehow getting a better education, since they are paying anywhere from $10,000 to $25,000 per year more for it. I am all for continuing to educate myself throughout my career and take every opportunity to do so, for instance I recently (on my own time and for free) spent a day job-shadowing with a Respiratory Therapist so I could gain more knowledge and perspective of their role in patient care. My point is this, you can get a lot or a little out of every educational opportunity, no matter the price tag put upon it. While experience is not the same as education, it is also highly valuable and a blend of the two is required to be a great nurse. That is why I like the phrase skilled professional. Having either your ADN or your BSN does not forever make you a great nurse, you must continue to gain both education and experience long after you have any degree to become a SKILLED PROFESSIONAL.
  5. by   janster58
    Back in the mid 90's Nova Scotia decided to pull the diploma program, and make all RN degrees bachelors. WEll it's come to bite them in the ass........they have a shortage now. I predicted that back then when I crossed the boarder.
  6. by   Gromit
    well, the topic may well remain open, but the comments have become repetitive if nothing else.
    Many say that we don't actually have a shortage of nurses, just a shortage of nurses who are willing to work AS nurses (I tend to agree with that statement) -but that results in the same thing, regardless. If you have a shortage of qualified people who are willing to do the work, then you need more people trained (to replace those who aren't willing to do it). In that case, you still have a shortage, so it would seem silly to make it even harder to attend and complete a program -yet thats what we see happening. To me this stuff is merely academic since I AM an RN, and have a job, and don't see getting out of this career any time soon (grin).
    If a state starts mandating training above what I already have, then I just won't be working for them. If mine decided to do it, and didn't grandfather those of us who haven't achieved their desired 'minimum', then they would see the tail-lights of my motorcycle as I rode out of state, bird being flipped, and found new 'digs' elsewhere.
    I do plan on getting my bachelors, and eventually my masters, but at MY pace, not at the pace of some hack in a deskjob who hasn't seen a patient in years (if ever).
    Last edit by Gromit on Jan 20, '07
  7. by   RNsRWe
    Quote from Gromit
    well, the topic may well remain open, but the comments have become repetitive if nothing else.
    Many say that we don't actually have a shortage of nurses, just a shortage of nurses who are willing to work AS nurses (I tend to agree with that statement) -but that results in the same thing, regardless. If you have a shortage of qualified people who are willing to do the work, then you need more people trained (to replace those who aren't willing to do it). In that case, you still have a shortage, so it would seem silly to make it even harder to attend and complete a program -yet thats what we see happening. To me this stuff is merely academic since I AM an RN, and have a job, and don't see getting out of this career any time soon (grin).
    If a state starts mandating training above what I already have, then I just won't be working for them. If mine decided to do it, and didn't grandfather those of us who haven't achieved their desired 'minimum', then they would see the tail-lights of my motorcycle as I rode out of state, bird being flipped, and found new 'digs' elsewhere.
    I do plan on getting my bachelors, and eventually my masters, but at MY pace, not at the pace of some hack in a deskjob who hasn't seen a patient in years (if ever).
    Well done!
  8. by   nurse4theplanet
    I'm with Gromit on this one! If I was being forced into going back to school, especially if I was in a position where it was ridiculous to do so, then I would leave the state. What if you've been a nurse for awhile and you are eligible for retirement just a few years beyond the 10yr mark...are you really going to invest that amount of money in upgrading your degree to keep the same position and same salary? No, I would go elsewhere.

    I understand the argument for BSN as the minimum entry into practice, however, I disagree with it. I do not feel that it would benefit anyone during the time being.

    We do have a nursing shortage...a shortage of nurses at the bedside just as everyone describes. Hmmmm...where do ADNs usually work? At the bedside, right? They can't move into management, etc. (usually). And what is the ADNs motivation usually to go back for another degree? Well, considering most facilities don't offer a differential for bedside nursing (or a significant one anyway) for having a BSN...I would argue that most ADNs get a BSN to get promoted into managerial positions, or others, in order to move away from bedside nursing.

    So by requiring that all ADNs go back to school to obtain a BSN or else be demoted to LPN, you are going to create a number of problems. You will have a larger number of applicants into RN-BSN programs than they are willing to handle, therefore, creating waiting lists or high competition for available spaces forcing some to choose to leave nursing. You will have others who will retire early or leave nursing for another career without even considering going back to school. The remainder will finish out their degrees (and most I would argue, were probably headed in that direction beforehand anyway) and then begin to look for jobs that pay higher than bedside nursing for which they are now qualified...thus, leaving the bedside. All these things will further strain the shortage at the bedside leaving the wonderful all BSN staff that IS there extremely overworked and dissatisfied...some of whom will quit...and the vicious cycle continues.

    I'm an ADN grad by the way, going for my BSN this fall! I'm not against any degree or program, just the possible ramifications of trying to change the policy so quickly when this country obviously needs as many bedside nurses as it can get its hands on!
  9. by   Gromit
    can't argue with that. When I decide to go back for my BSN, I'll expect to head towards a promotion or better paying circumstance (my facility doesn't offer differential -bedside RNs are bedside RNs -they employ very few LPNs and its my understanding that they are phasing out LPNs altogether (by atrition). Its starting to get to the point that Bachelors alone won't get you the managerial position -too many BSNs out there, so the only way to thin the herd looking for managerial spots is to increase the requirements. I'll probably leave the hospital altogether when I get the required levels of education and work for something in the private sector (like insurance, or maybe I'll get into medical/legal work. Who knows? Its a wide world of choices Thats the main reason I chose and love this field -never have I worked in a field that was so diverse, and getting more so all the time.
  10. by   DutchgirlRN
    I've been hearing that same story since I became a nurse 31 years ago along with the story that LPN's are going to be done away with. Yeah right. I'll believe those stories when they actually happen which is never.
  11. by   Gromit
    If the bit referring to the LPNs was directed at my post, allow me to clarify: I never claimed LPNs are going to be done away with as a level of nursing, just that my facility is phasing them out via atrition. They will continue to exist for a while on certain floors, but by and large they won't (here). I'm not really sure WHY they are doing it (simple enough on certain floors -like our own, too many push drugs are being used just to name one aspect). I certainly didn't mean to imply that they were going to be pushed out of practice elsewhere. Its a hospital-based decision (and the 'powers that be' decide whatever they decide, for whatever reasons they do it).
  12. by   DutchgirlRN
    Quote from Gromit
    If the bit referring to the LPNs was directed at my post, allow me to clarify: I never claimed LPNs are going to be done away with as a level of nursing, just that my facility is phasing them out via atrition.
    I wasn't referring to your post or anyone else's I was referring to the fact that I've been hearing that NY is going to require everyone to have a BSN for as long as I've been hearing that LPN's will be done away with, in the US, as a level of nursing for the past 31 years and neither has happened yet nor do I doubt they ever will. Cheers!
  13. by   Gromit
    K00L. I didn't really want to get under anyones' skin (grin). I think it would do far more harm than good to have these hacks orchestrate a situation that would phase out part of the nursing workforce (LPN or ADN, etc etc. Where does it end? Once you start cutting someone out, then you don't EVER stop).

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