Seniority - page 5
My faculty had adopted a new policy where seniority doesn't play a factor at all in obtaining new positions. A nurse who has only been there a year has an equal opportunity as a nurse who had been... Read More
Sep 17The idea of "company loyalty" meaning something...that seems to be moving into the past. More and more, people don't stay at the same company for their entire careers. I think this has changed the way seniority is viewed these days.
Sep 17Quote from CvepoMany older workers have had it plenty hard. Dues have been paid, I assure you. And as much as older workers might care, they might not be financially able to get out of your way. Or they might need to work for other reasons.Nursing is generational, and I actually find this to be a fascinating topic. It was discussed heavily at my old institution's preceptor course and charge nurse course because generational attitudes really do come into play in the nursing workforce because we have such a wide range of generations doing the same job.
I would never ask someone why they don't retire so others can have jobs. However, I challenge some of the older generation to look into what the new generation of workers is entering into, and the disadvantages they face. I came out with a BSN from a state school with over 25k in debt, and that's low compared to most. Housing prices in moderately large metro areas are well out of reach for the younger generation. Pensions and retirements are almost non-existant to new nurses. The worst part is that many of the older generation workers, frankly, don't give a crap about any of this. They just simply don't care, because all they see is "I worked for this" ignoring the fact that they had some things easier.
But I digress. I enjoy a thought provoking discussion on the matter, but I know it falls on deaf ears. All we can hope for is that the multi-generational nursing role can continue to grow and understand each other. It's not all about "me, me, me" on either end.
When it's your turn to be older, see how willing (and financially or otherwise able) you are to get out of the way of the younger folk.
existEnt not esixtAnt
Sep 18Quote from operationsOne issue you raise - medical leave. Don't forget that younger people need maternity leave, time off for child care issues, and their own occasional sickness.If you are thinking you are entitled to anything based on seniority or age in the workplace that is non negotiated and in writing, you are gravely mistaken. That's a very conservative and naive view.
And it's just not the way things are, not that I think it's "fair" by the most basic definition.
That is not to say that seniority doesn't have VALUE. It does, it means you are a very committed person to that company and your career, and they have had no reason to fire you for your employment duration.
But you are misunderstood of how buisness works, and the buisness world perceives fairness. Let me explain:
1. Fairness in the buisness world comes in the form of contracts. You are not "entitled" to anything that is not in writing by your employer. So if you want upward mobility, it is not something to be earned. You may be able to make a contract negotiation, but I do not know how often that an RN gets a guaranteed promotion via contract, probably never.
Understanding this fact is important so you are not lead on by your employer, which happens often because.....
2. Employers like to keep positions that are hard to fill filled. Taking a ****** role to impress an employer is often a trap, because if they can convince you to do your best and stay at this role, it will be filled with a reliable person indefinitely. This happens a lot in entry level roles...
"I'll take this ****** job and put in a few years and do my best. They will give me a promotion because I deserve it"
Wrong. Maybe they will, but you really are just taking a risk. You've made it up in your head you will recieve something no one has offered you. And it's a big risk, because as long as they can keep you loyal and motivated they have this great person that will do this job nobody wants. And that will be better for them, so that's what they will probably do. Altruistic definitions of "fairness" are not observed buy the buisness world.
3. "But I'm older. I have more expertise. I know this place inside and this role and out!"
Yes, that is a potential benefit that they should consider, and they probably will. However, a lot of choices are also made on data about that demographic. This is used all the time. Ex. Older people might have less ability to think creatively. Older people may need medical leave. Older people may not be as good with new technology. This information is gathered through research, and psychologists etc are often hired to consult a company on this data. Is it discrimination? Good question. It's done all the time every day and nothing has happened
4. "So a younger person is better than me? *****"
No. But they do have some potential benefits which are taken into account. Your expertise usually does mean something major in these decisions, but it's not the end all be all. There's data on young people too that isn't good:" Millennials tend to have poor work ethic". One you've probably heard of.
5. But most importantly, everyone knows that buisness is WHO you know most of the time and it's not going to change. So if you want to win the game, you have to play by the rules as much as possible. Network network network.
6. "but that's kissing ass and I'll never do it"
Making connections isn't kissing ass by default. And it's not a guaranteed thing, just something that is a benefit. Just like all other aspects, like experience, a connection with a person doesn't entitle you to anything either, but it doesn't hurt you.
Sep 20I'm in the UK, and all of the interviews I've attended have been points based. I think it's the best way, as it ensures the best applicant gets the job. Me personally, I'd much rather get the job because I earned it not because I'd been there the longest.
As an experienced nurse, I've had a few jobs and actually quite like interviews. It's a balance of asserting why you're the best candidate (your experience should shine through here!) without sounding too cocky. Having participated as a member of a panel to recruit new staff for my department, you see some people who interview poorly & people who interview brilliantly- it's about actually answering the questions you're asked, using these as opportunities to sell you & your knowledge, skills and experiences.
If you're genuinely worried- have you thought about getting some coaching? Our trust offers it for free, and this may be of benefit to you. As an experienced nurse you have huge value, it's all about working on the delivery in interview.Last edit by Queen_of_Cardiology on Sep 20 : Reason: clarity
Sep 20[QUOTE=SmilingBluEyes;9562764]But with my varied and long experience, I likely AM! And therefore, yes, my seniority SHOULD be considered as important. And fortunately, it did when I got my recent promotion. Yes, even if I say so myself, I did deserve it. I worked long and hard for it. I have seen with my own eyes when inexperienced people get promoted too soon, and it's not pretty for anyone, them or their staff. I would take an experienced person over someone without, hands-down, unless they are incompetent, which does happen at times.
If you were going to be charge, manager, director and it still hasn't happen maybe you hung out on the ladder too long instead of doing some classes, politicking, certs or whatever else it takes to move laterally or vertically. People like that aren't "waiting their turn" they're just out performing other people. Experience will come with time but networking and education has to be sought out.
I've seen plenty of the old guard thinking that holding down the fort on the med/surg floor for 25 years was some kind of badge of honor when in actually they're just cold, jaded, and not even remotely interested in a 'team' effort with newbies. They are just coasting until pension time and lost their drive years ago.
Alternately, maybe the Peter Principle applies like some of the senior nurses sucking up those job titles at my current facility. For example, we use a paper binder system for protocol call management, fax scripts, labs, and patient information, and general only use EMR for the Medicare minimum. We don't even have email accounts because the seniors don't understand or see a need for it's use due to their extensive experience with circa 1990 information management.
As health care continues to become regimented, compartmentalized, and fiscally scrutinized, there is going to be less room for careers which experience level typically peak in 10 years or less. You're going to see a lot more up or out policies coming down the pipeline. It's just the evolution of the health care business model. I'm seeing it now in long term care and rehabilitation as more nurses over 50 pickup floor positions because the hospital ousted them.
Sep 20Quote from CvepoI think I would be a grave error to assume that someone with little to no experience would be the best fit for a role . There needs to be a middle ground somewhere. Seniority should have some play in deciding on a promotion but not be the only deciding factor.^^This. Seniority blows, and is often used by the older generation of entitled nurses who feel that they have "earned" everything that they can possibly get. I use the example when it comes to transferring to ICU, because I've known many excellent floor nurses get denied ICU positions because of seniority, even if the senior nurse taking the position is completely unable to handle an ICU position, but thought "only 2 patients" would be easier.
I think it's a grave error to assume that just because someone has been with a company for a while that they are the best fit for a role.
Sep 21The thing is that there is no perfect system. Peer review can be helpful. It can also be a biased personality contest. Seniority can work, but then you can also end up with people in positions they are not suited to just because they have been there. However, who decides exactly what qualifications are needed. I've met LPNd that could run rings around some RNs and ASNs that could run rings around BSNs. I've met Psych nurses and ICU nurses that are a huge help in the ER and others that you might as well not have helping you.
Personally I would probably suck at corrections or psych.
Sep 21Quote from Ruby VeeI agree with this up to a certain point. I don't believe seniority should allow people to choose whichever holidays they'll work, or you will have nurses working every major holiday after every major holiday. And the same people shouldn't be constantly mandated. That isn't safe.Ageism is alive and thriving on allnurses.com!
Seniority is a fair way to decide who gets to go to day shift, have preference in holiday scheduling, float, take mandatory overtime or get that vacation slot that four people have requested. Seniority used in hiring decisions or advancement . . . maybe not so much. However if someone has worked in the system for 20 years, their time of service ought to be worth something, and entitled young ones who want want they want right now and don't want to wait their turn frost me.
Where I work, the holidays are rotated on a three-year cycle. No exceptions. After a certain number of years, Monday and Fridays are no longer a requirement, as is floating. Mandatory overtime isn't a thing (thank you, baby Jesus!). Everyone has set weekends. Vacation is a first come, first serve. If I ask for PTO months in advance, a more senior person who waits until the last minute should not be allowed to bump me off once my PTO has been approved. That is a recipe for resentment. Now, if a more senior person and I both requested PTO at the same time, then yes, the more senior person should get the vacation approved over me.
It doesn't have to be an "all or nothing." There needs to be a give and take on BOTH sides.
Sep 21Quote from SmilingBluEyesDepends on the type of the experience. If there is an ICU manager position opened, who should get the job...the ICU RN with five years of ICU experience or the more senior nurse with 2 years of ICU experience and 10 years of med-surg? What about the RN who has been at the place less but has been more involved than someone who just has clocked in and out, year after year without taking an active leadership role?But with my varied and long experience, I likely AM! And therefore, yes, my seniority SHOULD be considered as important. And fortunately, it did when I got my recent promotion. Yes, even if I say so myself, I did deserve it. I worked long and hard for it. I have seen with my own eyes when inexperienced people get promoted too soon, and it's not pretty for anyone, them or their staff. I would take an experienced person over someone without, hands-down, unless they are incompetent, which does happen at times.
I don't fathom people wanting immediate gratification and not waiting their turn. The longer you are at it, the more likely you will succeed as you climb the corporate ladder. It's just a fact.
While I agree that it *usually* the more senior person is the most qualified, it isn't black and white and the Peter principle shouldn't apply in nursing.