Young women, and societal expectations/professional strangleholds

[Guttercat]

I am an "old" nurse, and also a returning student.

Many of my classmates are just kids-- around twenty years old. I am currently retaking a couple of science classes, and my project partners in one class are young ladies pursuing a nursing degree.

A discussion I had with them in class today got me thinking. Has anything really changed in the last twenty years? I see "me" in them some twenty years ago, thinking I had to be a nurse because it was a natural progression as a CNA, I loved biological sciences and medicine, and the world (society) told me that as a young woman trying to make my own way in the world, nursing was my best chance at job security.

A couple of them are absolute whizzes at higher math, and love math/technology. One is not so keen on biological sciences, but can knock out a stats course with her eyes closed. Really? It's fairly rare to find people that can knock out stats like they're brushing their teeth. The other one thinks Algebra/calculus/trig is a cake walk, and loves and lives for anything math. Her heart is in math.

I asked them why then, are trying to get into the nursing program when their hearts lie elsewhere, and the job market for nurses is currently engineered to provide a nursing surplus?

I cannot remember being encouraged to do anything else with my knack for biological science and medicine...except for one dear anaesthesiologist in my surgical rotation who, point blank, asked me "Why don't you go to med school?"

Why didn't I? I don't know. I suppose, like them, I was a wide-eyed young woman, and unsure of my place in the world.

As I discussed the need and possibilites for the STEM (Science, Technology, Engineering Mathematics) fields, I saw little glimmers of realization in their faces.

I let them know nursing is not easy, and that they will not only have to think hard and have some degree of medical expertise , but they will be so while running mach-ten on their feet for hours on end.

Just thinkin'.

[Nurse Leigh]

I like to think I'm no slouch in the intellect department :). I specifically did not want to go to medical school, despite a deep and abiding interest in physiology, medicine, and surgery, precisely because I didn't want to work as hard as physicians did in the first decades of school and practice. And because my oppositional streak made me say, when people told me I was so smart that I should go to med school, that "People need smart nurses too." Still true, and I have never regretted the choice.

^^ Yep. I remember hearing about highly intelligent people, men and women, who would have excelled in STEM fields but decided to pursue a career in education. I loved that these people knew they "had what it takes" to be almost anything, but want to teach our children and believe that our children deserve some super smart teachers. :)

[Pudnluv, ASN, RN]

I started out college thinking I wanted to be a doctor. Then one day, while waiting for a friend of mine to get ready to go out, I started perusing through her basic nursing book. It was like being hit on the head with a brick. I realized that the career path that I had chosen was not what I wanted to do.

I have been asked many times, "why don't you go back to school and become a doctor?" Pure and simple, because that is not what I want to do. Physicians treat disease. Nurses treat people. While both professions work in conjunction with each other, they are two separate entities with their own standards and ethics. I am a nurse because I love nursing. I never cared about the pay or what job opportunities were out there. I went into nursing because it is what I knew in my heart what I wanted to do. Someone once told me that nursing was a calling. I truly believe that.

[LadyFree28, BSN, LPN, RN]

Do they want to pursue other careers and were told not to or did you infer that and then ask? When I was younger I excelled at English. I loved reading, writing, etc. I always got A's and to this day I still write for pleasure almost every day. But I never once thought to be a professional writer or English teacher. Just because you have a knack for something doesn't mean that is your only life option.[/quote']

This.

I wrote books as a child; I still have a very good knack at writing; my nieces found some of my works; my sister did illustrations for my books as well; they want to know when we will finish the books; I guess someday...

The DON at work complimented me on my nurses notes; I guess my passion for writing transcended into my nursing practice. :)

I knew the roles that a doctor and nurse had as an 80s child; learned about NPs in the 90s, once I started working since 2000, I knew how rich our profession was; I enjoy the nursing model, many people in our business do; however there are many who have NO idea; we do have to be mindful who need that guidance on whether nursing is a "good fit"; as one person who had a nurse attempt to steer me away from the profession (during the upheaval of hospital reimbursement and the mini recession of the 1990s) while I was in middle school, I would've made a grave mistake. This business "fits" me.

I am glad for my mindfulness and detective attitude that kept me well informed; in addition to my volunteering and working at a health center alongside nurses at my local public health clinics I had a true respect in being a part of nursing; as healthcare evolves and our roles expand, most of the STEM fits in many aspects of our business and have so for many decades; in a sense of application practice, whether it be in research, critical care, wound care/hyperbaric; public health, nursing informatics; acute care and rehabilitation nursing, pharmaceutical nursing; the list goes on....

[Baubo516, RN]

I don't have a deep, insightful response, but just thought I'd share... I was valedictorian of my HS class, and excelled in Calculus my senior year. I had no idea what type of "real job" I wanted or what I wanted to major in, and I was "coerced" into majoring in Chemical Engineering because I was "smart" and good at math. The things I actually loved to do were sing, act, dance...and my family did not deem these to be practical job-related skills.

After 3 semesters in engineering (the first 2 making straight A's), I changed my major to music education... edging closer to my love of performing, but still trying to be "practical." When I graduated (after 6 years because of changing majors so drastically), I freaked out because I did not want to be a teacher after all! I spent a miserable year and a half teaching because I felt I "had to," finally left and spent 7 years doing other things (including performing "professionally"), THEN went back to music teaching, and loved it for 7 years. Well, loved it for 5 years, then spent 2 years falling out of love...

When I realized I was burning out on being a music teacher, I began to look around at what else I could possibly do. Married now and rooted in my community, my dreams of being a professional performer have given way to dreams of having a happy, healthy marriage and living a good life. I have no interest in "business" of any kind, really, and I need to do work that I feel makes a difference in people's lives. I love studying the human body, how it works, how to help make it function at its best. I am detail oriented, curious and determined. I have leadership skills, communication skills, life experience, math skills and a desire to help people. So, I chose nursing!

Long story short - at the end of my working life, I will have spent most of my working years as a teacher and a nurse! But at NO TIME did I choose either of these things because of my gender! I think it is kind of funny that even though I have always known I could do anything I wanted to do (except, perhaps, be a professional singer, because I didn't have the courage when I still wanted that...), I have ended up WANTING the two most "traditional" careers for a woman.

If you want it, do it! Even if it IS traditional! :)

[Baubo516, RN]

p.s.

Another thing I wanted when I was in college the first time was to marry and have a family. For some reason, I did not feel like this was a "noble" or worthy goal. I had been conditioned to think that because I was "smart," I should seek a high-paying, professional career. I now know that the world also needs "smart" mommies, wives, nurses, whatever!

Sometimes all this "encouragement" to pursue WHATEVER the current thing is (high pay, STEM, etc.) can be limiting to young people. I think we should teach them to pursue whatever calls to them the most deeply right now, and let them know that as they move through life, what calls to them might change.

17 and 18 year olds should not feel like they have to choose what they want to do "for the rest of their lives." They only need to choose what they want to do FIRST. I wish someone had told me that when I was 17. I tell all of my younger classmates.

[Kooky Korky, BSN, RN]

In my case it was influence from family. I had always wanted to be a lawyer, (I loved Matlock), but my father wanted me to be a NEUROSURGEON. No way! But I was always trying to please him, I went to school under the premise of becoming a doctor. I hated it and needless to say, I ended up dropping out after my first year because my heart was not in it. Fast forward....16 years later I went to nursing school, I love being a nurse and I am good at it, but I often think what my life would be if I had went to law school.

I don't even remember speaking to a school counselor except for my junior year when I took the SAT. It is sad, that not much has changed from the time I graduated in 1985 to now.

You wonder what your life would have been like had you gone to Law school. But there is no way, really, to know. You could still go probably, if you really want to.

[Kooky Korky, BSN, RN]

Why do people pick the careers they pick? Among other things, we can't get past the biology. Women have to deal with childbearing and generally doing the most childrearing. Men are generally stronger, so fill more of the heavy labor positions in this world.

[duskyjewel]

OP, you're the one putting a gender lens on this. These young women are individuals, but you made assumptions about them based on their gender. Just who is the sexist here? Did you even bother to ASK them their individual reasons for why they are pursuing nursing, or did you just make an assumption that they must be oppressed young females who don't know their options?

My 15 year old is almost halfway through her junior year of high school and is preparing to double-major in Aerospace Engineering and Space Physics at Embry Riddle in Arizona. This is not anything we would ever have thought to encourage her toward, especially as Space Physics is offered by precisely ONE university in the entire country and we had no idea such a degree even existed. But SHE found it in her searching, because she was motivated and knew exactly what she wanted. Some people aren't that motivated or disciplined. Some people don't know how to use the resources around them to get the information they need, and aren't motivated to learn. That's not a gender thing, it's an individual thing. I get so tired of the hue and cry about how far women haven't come and how limited we still are. STAHP. American women have made a miraculous amount of progress in the last 100 years and anyone who denies that is either crazy or has an agenda.

[klone, MSN, RN]

My 15 year old is almost halfway through her junior year of high school and is preparing to double-major in Aerospace Engineering and Space Physics at Embry Riddle in Arizona. .

Prescott is a gorgeous town. I lived there for 7 years. Congrats to your daughter!

[cardiacfreak, ADN]

You wonder what your life would have been like had you gone to Law school. But there is no way, really, to know. You could still go probably, if you really want to.

Now you know why I didn't go to school to be an English teacher. I got a C in English, but an A in French.

[Guttercat, ASN, RN]

OP, you're the one putting a gender lens on this. These young women are individuals, but you made assumptions about them based on their gender. Just who is the sexist here? Did you even bother to ASK them their individual reasons for why they are pursuing nursing, or did you just make an assumption that they must be oppressed young females who don't know their options?

My 15 year old is almost halfway through her junior year of high school and is preparing to double-major in Aerospace Engineering and Space Physics at Embry Riddle in Arizona. This is not anything we would ever have thought to encourage her toward, especially as Space Physics is offered by precisely ONE university in the entire country and we had no idea such a degree even existed. But SHE found it in her searching, because she was motivated and knew exactly what she wanted. Some people aren't that motivated or disciplined. Some people don't know how to use the resources around them to get the information they need, and aren't motivated to learn. That's not a gender thing, it's an individual thing. I get so tired of the hue and cry about how far women haven't come and how limited we still are. STAHP. American women have made a miraculous amount of progress in the last 100 years and anyone who denies that is either crazy or has an agenda.

I appreciate your observations, and I did indeed chew on them.

One also has to recognize that one doesn't need a gender lens. Infer away as to my having a biased --"sexist" as you call it-- filter, I'm going to just let that one go.

Nursing is, after all, predominantly what sociologists describe as a "gendered" or, "sex segregated occupation." And, yes, as I posted earlier, one of the young ladies was heavily questioning her choice to pursue nursing and why she was on that path.

This led me to be very curious as to the bigger picture.

The statistical gap, though, of numbers of women vs. men entering into STEM fields, or even business has narrowed to within less than 2% of each other. So there is that aspect, too, as you pointed out about your daughter.

However, according to the National Center for Education Statistics (2009), the percentage of bachelor's degrees awarded in health Sciences ("mostly nursing") stands at around 86% female graduates, and the education fields at 79% female.

Of those, I wonder how many of these grads in these traditionally female occupations were a result of complexities of gender socialization (family and societal signals) and basic gender related biology (let's face it, women are more inclined to be nurturers).

Interesting discussion. Again, thanks all for your observations.

[Baubo516, RN]

Another thought - when I was a teacher, most of the teachers I worked with had spouses who made more money than they did. This allowed them to have a pretty nice standard of living and still be a teacher. Teachers aren't paid very well (even worse if you teach in a parochial school), so that may be part of the reason why men don't consider it as often. I know this is a societal construct, but women may feel more comfortable with the idea that their spouse will have the higher paying job. The men I taught with were also mostly coaches - that was their main reason for being teachers! My husband is adjunct faculty at a university, and he made about the same amount of money as I did teaching. I got tired of being poor after working so very hard for so many hours!